Could this be considered the last Alco ever constructed?

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, February 6, 2020 8:29 AM

From M636C " I was under the impression that a batch of White Pass and Yukon DL-535s was started at Schenectady but the incomplete shells were moved to Montreal for completion

Good point. So the T-6 is the last complete built and the WP&Y shells the last new loco out of the factory locomotive but incomplete and shipped to their retreat position in Montreal. 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, February 6, 2020 7:06 AM

Flintlock76
Andrei Tupolev wanted to design a four-engine heavy bomber of his own but Stalin wanted a B-29 clone.  Goes without saying you just didn't say "No!" to Stalin!

But he certainly had the last laugh with the Tu-95, probably the best propeller-driven bomber ever made.  Certainly the one with the best propulsion.

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, February 6, 2020 3:47 AM

Miningman

From M636C:

"The number of units built in India might exceed the number of diesel units built in both Montreal and Schenectady.

Since Fairbanks Morse has been mentioned, the Russians built more locomotives with copies of the 38D8-1/8 than EMD built with the 567."

Peter

 Truly truly remarkable.

Did the Ruskies pay royalties to F-M or nyet?  

 

 

I thought I'd do a quick survey of Alco Roadswitchers.

A really rough check suggested there were about 5000 built in North America not counting M630 and M636 (I was using an old reference)...

Looking just at the Indian built DL-560 variants:

WDM-2 = 2700

WDM-3A = 3140

WDM-3D = 590

WDG-2 = 1163

WDP-3A = 44   Total 7637

The DL-560s are all 16 cylinder units rated between 2600 and 3100 HP.

Now for the Fairbanks Morse...

(Incidentally, 207mm = 8-1/8", hence the Chinese 10L207 designation)

Looking at the Russian locomotives with the blower engine, Classes TE-3 and TE-7

13, 600 units (at least)

Looking at the turbocharged units (3000 HP), Class TE-10

19183 units...

There would have been several hundred in China at least...

Off the top of my head there were around 30000 EMDs with 567 engines..

(If someone has a correct figure for EMD, let me know...)

Peter

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 6:33 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The last Schenectady built model was a T6, Newburgh & South Shore 1017.

 

I was under the impression that a batch of White Pass and Yukon DL-535s was started at Schenectady but the incomplete shells were moved to Montreal for completion.

Interestingly, the locomotives supplied to Myanmar in 2018, mentioned by NorthWest, fifty years later, were also DL-535s.

Peter

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 6:02 PM

An Alco T-6. Thanks CSSHEGEWISCH

T-6

Alco T-6 On The Daily Local.jpg
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 10:43 AM

Well if the Rooshians could reverse-engineer a B-29 an F-M diesel engine would have been an easy job for them.

Andrei Tupolev wanted to design a four-engine heavy bomber of his own but Stalin wanted a B-29 clone.  Goes without saying you just didn't say "No!" to Stalin!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 10:42 AM

Overmod
...While we are on the subject of Communist engines...

Speaking of Communist engines, there was at least one DF (Dong Feng) survived and still working in 2016:

This is a 1800hp (10L207E engine) DF3, shared the same body style with DF. I found these "USSR breed" of diesel engines quite attractive.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 10:20 AM

The last Schenectady built model was a T6, Newburgh & South Shore 1017.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 8:12 AM

Third sentence from the top " Soon, Bombardier closed the former MLW plant ending Alco production in North America."

No matter... 

So the Ruskies run a loaned icebreaker with 3 engines instead of 4 , the 4th being taken apart and reverse engineered... so that's how they invented it. 

Hope they sent F-M a thank you postcard and at least put them on their Christmas card list. 

So what was the last brand new model to roll off the floor in Schenectady?

A Century series? A lowly switcher? 

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, February 5, 2020 5:09 AM

My original posting did specify if this was the last Alco built in N America.

No it didn't - It referred to the cessation of work at Montreal but this wasn't linked to the main question. There was nothing to connect the two to the casual reader, even if it was in the mind of the writer.

I don't think Australian builder's plates used the name "Alco" after 1969. Off the top of my head there was a reference to "MLW-Worthington". But the word Alco was pressed into the 251 fuel pump covers on every engine I ever saw. But the plates always quoted the Alco series builder's number.

To the question about Chinese 265H engines, I think even the Chinese realised that this engine was worse than the equivalent GE engine and after the intial 300 units of each type, many more ES59ACi units were built compared to the JT56C units. They did build some double ended ES59ACi units which might have been considered an advantage of the JT56C. I think at least two Chinese Coast Guard ships have 265H engines as main propulsion and this might be a better use for the engine.

During WWII, the Russians were loaned an icebreaker, possibly the "North Wind" which had four FM engines driving generators and two motors on the shafts. It was said that for some time in Russian service it ran with only three engines while the the fourth was off being copied.

Peter

 

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 7:06 PM

Well why not one in each category.. I believe we already have 2 of them.

My original posting did specify if this was the last Alco built in N America.  
The MLW was a complete part of the Alco regime in North America and it's where Alco retreated to after closing Schenectady.

So when was the last time the Alco name was on a builders plate?

Side note: I can access Classic on my phone but not on my iPad .. I can get Trains on both, that never occurred before. 

Late edit-- Things once again back to normal ... for now anyway. 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 2:34 PM

Did we ever decide what 'counted? ...

Last engine built at Schenectady?

Last engine of entire Alco design built in North America?

Last engine with "Alco" on the builder's plate somewhere?

Last engine with a 251 built by an actual Alco successor?

Last engine built with an Alco-option-set 251?

Last engine built with an improved 251?

Other criteria?

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 10:12 AM

DLW delivered 18 251-powered locomotives to Myanmar as recently as March of 2018. Not sure if anything has been built since.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction-and-rolling-stock/myanmar-locomotive-handed-over/46159.article

Equipped with microprocessors, etc!

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 9:38 AM

Miningman
Did the Ruskies pay royalties to F-M or nyet?

Is that intended as a serious question?  Wait 'til I stop laughing...

About as much royalty, I expect, as Alco got for the Soviet copy of the 539s that were in the MRS1s for the Iran railway project.  Remember the story in Trains about the locomotive in Cuba that was such a loyal copy that it included some of the Alco casting numbers in the block?

Meanwhile the Chinese supposedly have hundreds of 265H four-stroke 6000hp EMD motors running, supposedly with little problem, and Peter will know the provenance of the OP motors in the many members of the Dong Feng class up to DF4 ... likely Russian designed, and likely 38D8 "related" at one step further in the 'Chinese copy' (I couldn't resist) chain...

While we are on the subject of Communist engines -- does anyone know the provenance of the 12V240ZJ or 16V280ZJA/B engine families (from about 1969 forward?)  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 9:10 AM

The Russkies probably claimed they  invented it!  

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Posted by Miningman on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 8:05 AM

From M636C:

"The number of units built in India might exceed the number of diesel units built in both Montreal and Schenectady.

Since Fairbanks Morse has been mentioned, the Russians built more locomotives with copies of the 38D8-1/8 than EMD built with the 567."

Peter

 Truly truly remarkable.

Did the Ruskies pay royalties to F-M or nyet?  

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, February 4, 2020 1:39 AM

Miningman

So the HR616 IS the last Alco built series in North America and #2119 was the last individual locomotive to roll of the line. 

Thanks Dude.

 

 

But locomotives built in North America are only part of the whole story...

There were more C636s built in Australia, with builders numbers in the Alco series than ever ran in North America. I think that is true for M636s also.

There were a number of Alcos built in Romania, and apart from those used locally, ten big passenger units with 16-251s rated at 4000 HP were sold to Greece and 20 with 12-251s rated at 3000HP were sold to Iran. There were French built Alco engined locomotives sold to Iraq. Most of these were built in the 1980s.

The number of units built in India might exceed the number of diesel units built in both Montreal and Schenectady.

Since Fairbanks Morse has been mentioned, the Russians built more locomotives with copies of the 38D8-1/8 than EMD built with the 567.

Peter

 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 3, 2020 8:00 PM

So the HR616 IS the last Alco built series in North America and #2119 was the last individual locomotive to roll of the line. 

Thanks Dude.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, February 3, 2020 6:45 PM

Miningman

Well that was acknowledged and implied by this " Soon, Bombardier closed the former MLW plant ending Alco production in North America."

Point taken however, so thanks.

I'm not even sure if the Bombardier HR616C qualifies entirely.  I believe the builders plate on the LRC has Alco/MLW on it but not sure about the HR616C.

The HR-series units were very similar to their M-line predecessors, and had most of the same problems.  They were true ALCO/MLW units, through and through.

The CNRHA magazine (CN Lines) had a good article some years ago about the HR616 and the various modifications/fixes CN tried over their careers.  I can't find my copy right now, but I recall a quote from a CN mechanic who stated that they were just a M630 in a different body.

CN 2119 should have been preserved, being the last new North American ALCO/MLW unit, and also the first freight unit with a desktop control stand.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by M636C on Monday, February 3, 2020 5:37 PM

Not only were the Indian locomotives built under licence, but for many years they were issued with Alco builder's numbers.

This was certainly the case with the broad gauge DL-560 and the metre gauge DL-535 which were built for years with a single contract number for each type.

Most Alco spares have been sourced from India for some years now.

While EMD and more recently GE have entered the locomotive market in India, it will be some years before Alcos are replaced even in top main line duties.

Peter

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, February 3, 2020 10:59 AM

I checked the Fairbanks-Morse website out of curiosity a year or so ago, and if I remember correctly FM still produces the Alco 251 engine and the replacement parts for the same. 

Correction, I did some checking.  FM dropped the 251 engine in 2018, although they still offer a training course on it.   I don't know if they still stock parts, the website's a bit vague on that.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, February 3, 2020 10:28 AM

I'll go along with Peter, especially since the Indian-built diesels were built under license.  I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I believe that DLW is now a licensee for both Alco and EMD designs.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, February 2, 2020 11:23 AM

M636C---Of course it does. At some point the last builders plate with Alco stamped on it happened. Ironically GE housed itself in the Montreal Locomotive Works sprawling complex but after they left it was tore down. I thought I read that Alcos 'stuff' was purchased by Fairbanks Morse of all things, so perhaps the ghosts of Alco are no longer residing at all with Bombardier in any way.

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, February 2, 2020 2:34 AM

Well, there is always New South Wales State Rail Authority locomotive 8050 which was the last new Alco built in Australia, delivered March 1983 and still in service with Pacific National, the successor to the original operator.

Surely being the last built and still being in service counts for something....

Peter

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 1, 2020 5:33 PM

Well that was acknowledged and implied by this " Soon, Bombardier closed the former MLW plant ending Alco production in North America."

Point taken however, so thanks.

I'm not even sure if the Bombardier HR616C qualifies entirely.  I believe the builders plate on the LRC has Alco/MLW on it but not sure about the HR616C.

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, February 1, 2020 5:12 PM

Not even close....

Try any number of Indian locomotives built at Varanasi....

For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_locomotive_class_WDG-2/3A

First unit built August 22, 1994. 1163 units in service by 2015.

Peter

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Could this be considered the last Alco ever constructed?
Posted by Miningman on Saturday, February 1, 2020 11:13 AM

2104 one of a tiny order for only 20 units from Bombardier believed a compelled purchase to keep BBD in business. Nobody else ordered any! Soon, Bombardier closed the former MLW plant ending Alco production in North America.

Canadian National Railways 

BBD HR616C

3000 HP full width carbody with Draper taper. 

2100-2119 (20) Only order from any railway. 

Note: 2117-2119 built with Hitachi traction motors. 
2119 built with LRC style controls. 


2100-2103 built 2/26, 2/26, 3/26, 3/26/1982 
Retired 2/11/1983 sold back to Bombardier, Inc. 
Units shopped, modified 3200 HP M6118-01 to -04 3/1983 
and sent out as demonstrators 7001-7004 on CP Rail 
Repurchased by CN 5/25/1984. 

BDR 7002 ex CN 2101. CP Rail Toronto Yard. March 4, 1984 Bill Grandin 
Note: QNS&L 214 behind. 

2104 Moncton, NB August 25, 1991

Brand new! 

Or was it perhaps these? 

Dramatic angle shot of spotless 6901 on a train in Union Station.

6907 LRC unit with standard coaches at the "new" CN station built in 1963.

 

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