For steam lovers

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 30, 2019 3:43 PM

Flintlock76

Which is a hell of a lot more plausible then that Nazi "Treasure Train" supposedly buried in Poland.  Haven't heard much about that lately.  

 

Glad to see the forum is back. I thought the Nazi "Treasure Train" has been found. I also believe that there are more Nazi stuff still buried in some strange places. Coffee

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 30, 2019 3:19 PM

Which is a hell of a lot more plausible then that Nazi "Treasure Train" supposedly buried in Poland.  Haven't heard much about that lately.  

On the other hand, there is a buried pocket battleship, the Admiral Scheer, in Kiel, Germany.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0lsdvdOdQs  

And some buried U-Boots in Hamburg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omn6VK64t9Q  

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, September 30, 2019 1:33 PM

Up again it comes -- Alive! Alive, I tell you!

Used the intervening time wisely.  We have all the detail drawings of the de Dietrich steam Bugatti conversion coming, and someone reviewing all the files at Henschel regarding Warren and Abner's railcar and truck work there.

And apparently Oscar Henschel had a custom Doble-powered car that was rolled into an air raid shelter -- the entrance to which was buried under yards of fractured concrete.  It appears it may still be there...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, September 27, 2019 9:23 PM

SD70Dude

 

 
Flintlock76

Someone asked me once if I ever did any horseback riding.  I said I tried it once, got on the horse, but couldn't figure out how to get it out of "neutral!"

 

 

Squeeze, kick, or click.

 

I might have known.  I had to do the same with my first car, a Volkswagen "Beetle."  

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Posted by SD70Dude on Friday, September 27, 2019 5:13 PM

Flintlock76

Someone asked me once if I ever did any horseback riding.  I said I tried it once, got on the horse, but couldn't figure out how to get it out of "neutral!"

Squeeze, kick, or click.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, September 27, 2019 9:26 AM

Amusing, but understandable.  Sounds like "car guy" carry-over.  

Automobile terminology is pretty much universal because it's understandable to most of us, kind of like sports analogies.

Someone asked me once if I ever did any horseback riding.  I said I tried it once, got on the horse, but couldn't figure out how to get it out of "neutral!"

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 27, 2019 6:54 AM

BaltACD
Valve cover gaskets.....

Valve chest cover gaskets.  There are big, important differences between this and a what's involved with a typical IC engine 'valve cover' gasket change.

Amusing to see them describing this in the video as a 'head gasket' which is of course something radically different too.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 26, 2019 6:39 PM

Valve cover gaskets.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykaDUvOHdTU

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, September 25, 2019 9:34 AM

Overmod
 You really, really need to read up on Doble and Besler and Pritchard, and the work from the '20s on in modern steam automotive power.  If this is a subject that interests you, I strongly advise that you join the Steam Automobile Club of America's "phorum" and arrange with them (probably via Tom Kimmel) for a copy of Doble's collected papers (it was in 2 very fat volumes when he gave me my copy).  Some of their frequent correspondents are VERY well-known names in modern light steam.  (Warning: if you think we have curmudgeons on the Trains Forums, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine some of the goings-on there...) 

Will do, Mr. Overmod. Thank you for the suggestions because I have zero background studying things about steam automobiles. It is like the real world, sometimes I don't know where and how to begin with without hints or network. I don't afraid of curmudgeons, I remember how those folks treated big cats in a circus. Coffee

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 4:50 PM

selector
Steam clock in Gastown, downtown Vancouver, British Columbia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOKSAUCWOX8

Is the steam supplied by a 'city wide' steam network?

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, September 24, 2019 11:00 AM

Jones1945
It probably only takes 5 mins or less using a device like a 5000w induction stove, to generate enough steam pressure for a small size modern automobile. Accompany with solar energy, battery, an app that the driver could start heating the water in the boiler in advance, a simple computer that monitors and control the temperature, water level, and all index relate to safety. I don't know if it is economically viable or not.

You really, really need to read up on Doble and Besler and Pritchard, and the work from the '20s on in modern steam automotive power.  If this is a subject that interests you, I strongly advise that you join the Steam Automobile Club of America's "phorum" and arrange with them (probably via Tom Kimmel) for a copy of Doble's collected papers (it was in 2 very fat volumes when he gave me my copy).  Some of their frequent correspondents are VERY well-known names in modern light steam.  (Warning: if you think we have curmudgeons on the Trains Forums, you'd be hard-pressed to imagine some of the goings-on there...)

Stanley used a very conventional vertical firetube arrangement, wire-winding the boiler shell like an 1870s-era naval rifle for great safety even at high nominal psi, and a relatively conventional 2-cylinder engine without gear transmission.  Problem -- and you can see this in a couple of the Leno videos -- is that the burner gives extremely poor radiant heat to the transfer surfaces in All Those Thin Tubes, and isn't really the best in heating a large air mass for what convective transfer can actually occur in so short an effective gas path.  This is NOT a solution good for much except safety and reliability-at-the-expense-of-performance.  It is moreover not very enhanced with better burner technology alone, in part because a good White-style 'blue flame' gas burner won't increase effective heat flux combined with appropriate heat transfer even if you make separate (and probably not fully fuel-efficient) separately-fired load-following superheater arrangements (as done much better in the enginion AG arrangement)

Doble and the others use a completely different arrangement to make steam, a monotube flash 'steam generator' (many of the people adopting flash-steam principles before WWII didn't like the old-fashioned word 'boiler' because arrangement didn't hold a mass of water to be boiled).  Doble in particular worked with the tapered monotube, in which both the volume inside and the area exposed to flame outside increased as the water boiled to steam and was then superheated in the single pass through a long tapered tube wrapped with clever geometry into a coil, with baffles causing the combustion gas to make multiple passes through appropriate zones.  This of course involves careful and continuous control of fuel feed, combustion air, and feedwater injection, and Doble was highly successful in building mechanical sensors and actuators to do this long before practical control electronics could do it reliably and cost-effectively enough.  Any good Doble would move from cold within no more than 30 seconds of 'first fire' and would require comparatively little engine heating-up to be run at high speed.  (I still think it needed a transmission, but don't listen solely to me -- I thought high-speed steam locomotives needed one, too)

The 'catch' with a classical monotube, aside from the difficulties associated with fabricating and inspecting one, is that of course it has almost no 'reserve', either for surge performance or for helping allow some latency in firing or feedwater injection.  Even short periods of stoppage or overrun can produce a range of highly amusing results, usually not desirable, not seen in gasoline automobiles.  Hence the interest in a small LaMont of correct detail design, where there can be very good radiant uptake and good convective absorption, any reasonable reserve overcritical-water mass, and 6x circulation in a small package for the cost of the circulating pump (which, please note, has a relatively small pressure drop between its inlet and outlet, probably not more than about 3' equivalent head even at best circulation.  There is very high speed in the firebox waterwall, enough to 'scrub' any significant DNB or Leidenfrost/Eisenhoffer issue, and centrifugal steam separators very effectively remove even small liquid nuclei from the steam going to the superheater arrangement.  The control problem collapses to something relatively rudimentary; the startup while not as rapid as a monotube can still be within a couple of minutes (and can in effect be facilitated via a watertube arrangement heating the circulating water under pressure, either onboard or in a stationary 'charging system' comparable in functionality to a direct-steam plant (which can also perform things like home heating or absorption-HVAC regeneration).  I would note that some of the modern nanoinsulation systems make it quite practical to maintain 'idle pressure' at or near 100% gauge overnight with only a small 'maintenance' electrical element of the kind in a typical domestic water heater -- as is already done in practice on converted Kriegslok 8055.

I proposed the use of slightly modified Shuttle-tiling-like ceramic material with sputtered 'distributed' catalytic ignition and flameholding, both for the LaMont boiler and for the separately-fired load following superheat -- this poses little more difficulty in time from lighting-off to stable load-following than a modern gasoline engine of the early 2000s, and only a bit more time to guarantee limited peak NOx or HC generation (largely through short-period quench of combustion on cold gas-path surfaces before the system "comes up to temperature" -- this used to be a great issue on IC engines but has largely been addressed with comparatively complicated electronically-assisted control systems, such that pollution even from full-range demanded-power swings was accommodated within about 20 engine revolutions while I was actively following that technology many years ago, and may have improved even more since then -- you can gauge the time involved, and by extension some of the actual mass of potential pollutants, by utilizing the engine speed at the time of power change as an analysis value.

By the time you have an effective external-combustion plant that can compete with a modern GDI engine, you'll still have most of the crap associated with the larger condenser/recompressor and various proportional circulation associated with upping the Rankine cycle effectiveness -- Besler thought there was a minimum size practical steam plant for most vehicles, and it rules out most economical modern passenger cars in the 'base' for calculating political 'fleet fuel  economy' by manufacturer, even in this modern age where some big makers no longer offer "cars" like sedans at all.  There are other issues that very heavily militate against the idea of a car that does not require prompt and nit-picking attention to a great many things or else it will stop when you don't want to -- note I don't say 'explode' but getting singed can be miserable too...

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 23, 2019 7:50 PM

That steam clock is just too cool for words!

The Christie tractor unit for that fire pumper is quite interesting.  Christie wasn't the only one who made those tractor units, but the others escape me at the moment.

It is a fact the firemen were sorry to see the horses go, heartbroken really, human nature being what it is the men did make pets out of them, and considering how many big-city firemen of the time were Irish, and the Irish do have a love of the "har-ses," it was a sad day indeed when the horses left.

Most were sold off to farmers or city merchants who worked from horse-drawn wagons, and woe betide those who mistreated those ex-fire horses!  The firemen always kept track of their old friends. 

How much do the Irish love horses?  Well, I'll have the Irish Rovers take us all to "The Galway Races!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnkISSjcdko  

I don't know what to make of that steam spider.  Creepy.  No-one going to write a song about that thing!

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 23, 2019 7:48 PM

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 23, 2019 7:37 PM

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 23, 2019 1:14 PM

Flintlock76

Kerosene powered fan?

Here 'ya go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t8LEKf04TA  

It that "cool" or what?

Very hot, and sexy. Not sure how it could lower indoor temperature, it could have been used as a bathroom or kitchen exhaust fans, where electricity was unavailable. 

selector

Steam clock in Gastown, downtown Vancouver, British Columbia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOKSAUCWOX8

 

Another masterpiece! I have been to there serval times and thought that it is a historic clock completely powered by steam. 

It's my turn:

Jay Leno's 1914 Christie Fire Engine

 

 

Steam Powered Spider by I-Wei Huang

Coffee

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Posted by selector on Monday, September 23, 2019 12:44 PM

Steam clock in Gastown, downtown Vancouver, British Columbia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOKSAUCWOX8

 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, September 23, 2019 12:33 PM

Kerosene powered fan?

Here 'ya go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t8LEKf04TA  

It that "cool" or what?

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 23, 2019 11:29 AM

Those early steam-powered cars were exotic, especially after the driver successfully starting it. It probably only takes 5 mins or less using a device like a 5000w induction stove, to generate enough steam pressure for a small size modern automobile. Accompany with solar energy, battery, an app that the driver could start heating the water in the boiler in advance, a simple computer that monitors and control the temperature, water level, and all index relate to safety. I don't know if it is economically viable or not.  

 

Another thing that I want to see on my fantasy train or steam-powered ocean liner: Kerosene operated steam fan Yes 

Just for decoration...........

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, September 23, 2019 10:17 AM

There is an exchange in "The Music Man" in which Prof. Hill's former partner asked him why he stopped selling steam automobiles.  Hill's reply:  "Somebody actually invented one." Laugh

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, September 21, 2019 11:37 PM

Miningman

Stoddard Inventions and Calliope Music : from Mike 

 



 
 

 
 
 
 

Thanks for the links, Vince and Mike, this is a bouns thing when I looking for a "Steam-powered Fan"

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Saturday, September 21, 2019 11:34 PM

Overmod
Jones1945
If the early steam cars didn't require almost an hour of work to starting, they would have been more popular. I guess. 

What makes you think it took anywhere near that long?

A video from Jay Leno's youtube channel Jay Leno's Garage Movie

Starting from 2:05, it took him 45 mins to get the car ready. Broken Heart

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, September 20, 2019 11:09 PM

Stoddard Inventions and Calliope Music : from Mike 

 



 
 

 
 
 
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 20, 2019 7:46 PM

Ah, the calliope!

The original Stoddard patent is notable because it references not the instrument, but the controllable valve that was used to produce the music ... those of us who are interested in Franklin System or British Caprotti valve gear will note that he refers to these valves as "puppet" valves, this only slightly more than half a decade after Corliss used snap-action rotary valves for comparable action...

Just for the record, the air-driven version ('invented' by Norman Baker) which has less tendency to go out of tune due to heating when played for the requisite annoyingly long time, a bit like the Yale Whiffenpoofs, has a distinct name: it is a Calliaphone.  I believe there are still people that make these; think of a player piano with whistles instead of hammers.

I do have to say that I had a bit of a hand in calliaphone history: when I was a high-school student, I hit upon the idea of controlling the temperature of the air going to the individual whistles so that its expansion would hold the metal at close to ambient atmospheric temperature, thereby keeping both the relative pitch and the partials where the designer intended them to be.  This gets around a GREAT deal of the actual reason why the calliope started to have the timbre of the rackett family of instruments (look it up, and yes, that's where the expression got started) once it had been played, and the calliaphone can have similar issues although from cold when driven properly loud -- if proper is the word for it.

Note that some constructions of organ pipe (for example those using spotted metal) can be adapted to be blown on steam, and as with locomotive whistles a very large percentage of the 'driving air' column is atmosphere and not admitted steam.  Some very pretty effects can be made ... although I think steam-blown reeds are right there in the rackett family right out of the box...

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, September 20, 2019 7:26 PM

Flintlock76
* The Cricklewood Pumping Station, Dollis Hill, London. Still in use but now electric powered.

http://www.british-film-locations.com/scene-1ad/A-Night-To-Remember-1958

Big Smile  I'm Cuckoo For Choo Choo Stuffs!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, September 20, 2019 2:36 PM

Steam Calliope

 
Not Stompin Tom. But it's the Good Old Hockey Game
 
 
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, September 20, 2019 10:52 AM

That was it Mr. Jones.  According to Jay Leno and others as good as the steam cars were they couldn't get around the time it took to build up steam pressure before you could start driving.

Not like a gasolene car where all you did was turn a crank or later push a starter button.  

So, that was the end for Stanley Steamer and others.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 20, 2019 9:49 AM

Jones1945
If the early steam cars didn't require almost an hour of work to starting, they would have been more popular. I guess. 

What makes you think it took anywhere near that long?

As early as 1911, White (which used a blue-flame gasoline burner arrangement) would take no more than a very few minutes to get up steam from 'cold' -- limited mostly by minimizing differential expansion effects.  When warm I believe steam would be raised for running within a minute (I have seen this done during steam-car 'meets').

A good Doble monotube, of course, would have steam raised within a few seconds of firing, and this will be true of other flash systems.  The fact that the steam generator is throttled on and off to maintain pressure in a reservoirless setup will tell you that initial steaming will not require much more time.

Naturally this presumes a fuel that hasn't frozen or gelled in the tank or lines, and that you have warm feedwater.  These could be difficult requirements to meet in many places turn-of-the-century cars would be garaged.

Just for the record: I prefer the idea of a LaMont steam generation setup to any kind of once-through 'critical' monotube setup, in part because turndown can be made so simple.  This has a fairly large (can be very large if desired) reservoir of overcritical water, which has to be heated in circulation before you get effective throttle steam at the separators.  For this I propose an analogue of a locomotive direct-steaming setup, which is essentially a pressure-rated water heater with electric or gas heating that is brought up to pressure before the car would be used (by timer, for example) and is then connected to the car under nitrogen pressurization to transfer the treated water at reasonable pressure.  Heating from there to working pressure (in a proper LaMont) is very rapid, and of course steam stripping is continuous as a function of forced circulation (the rate of which is independent of steam demand)

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, September 20, 2019 8:59 AM

Miningman

Love the song, and that straightforward slogan. If the early steam cars didn't require almost an hour of work to starting, they would have been more popular. I guess. 

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