Flintlock76By the way, I suppose the title "Green Hats" for ex-NYC personnel during the in-house Penn-Central dogfights came from that short-lived "Jade Green" paint scheme, which was also applied to some cabooses and other rolling stock
Pretty sure it would have been either Brewster Green or Pacemaker Green, although the jade/pea green became well-established in the 1960s.
You're welcome NDG!
URHS has some good stuff, don't they? Much more than I thought they did.
They do have open houses from time to time but unfortunately none have coincided with my visits up north, at least not yet.
By the way, I suppose the title "Green Hats" for ex-NYC personnel during the in-house Penn-Central dogfights came from that short-lived "Jade Green" paint scheme, which was also applied to some cabooses and other rolling stock. The ex-Pennsy people were called "Red Hats." Two different companys with two different cultures, no wonder they couldn't get along.
You're welcom Mr. 567! That URHS website looks interesting, I haven't gone through the whole thing yet but will when the opportunity permits.
We're nowhere near Strasburg, so won't be seeing 611. We ARE going to the Greenberg Train Show in Oaks PA tomorrow which is right "next door" to the hotel, then back over to Stephanie's to attack more bushes. Good Lord, have any ove you tried to remove 50 year old juniper bushes? I dulled one chainsaw blade chain already! Not as much fun as I thought it was going to be, and that's putting it mildly!
Thank you Firelock for the link and photos. Miningman, Overmod for your informitive input answers and research on the subject. I checked a copy of the book New York Central System Diesel locomotives by William D.Edson Chief Mechanical Engineer NYC System 1965-1968. The only reference to the century green units in the book is a photo of E8A 4053 and E7A 4107 on page 183 and that it was unusual and short lived. I sent an email to two aquaintences who are members of The ACL-SAL Historical society of which i am also a member.and both have knoweldge and interest in the NYC.One response was he had never heard that or seen a photo and thought 1960 was too late to use the Script hearald which he had only seen used in photos on the Train X locomotive and some use on the cab sides of a few switchers and a handful of early green boxcar repaints.The other response was that he had heard the story more than three Es got the green paint but only Es and had never seen any photos except of the three known units and would question painting green of a third string C liner .i try to be accurate in my postings and i apologize to all for repeating and posting what was unsubstatiated and that i should have better researched first to maintain credibility.
MiningmanBe easy to paint one up in any scale model to sort of see what it looks like, or photoshop a real one just for the heck of it.
The astounding thing to me being that no one, at Moldover's site or elsewhere, appears to have even tried.
Here ya go, kiddo:
http://paintshop.railfan.net/images/belanger/cpa-24-5.html
So perhaps a myth based on a paper or verbal order that occurred but never implemented. Hard to believe if it was real that no pic exists for something that would stand out so prominently.
Derelict in '67 in Cleveland you say. Another lost chance at preservation. CPR was happily running their fleet with NDG aboard somewhere in the mountains.
Be easy to paint one up in any scale model to sort of see what it looks like, or photoshop a real one just for the heck of it.
Let me know when you get to Strasburg. I want to find out what modifications have been made on 611's lateral compliance firsthand.
Story I've gotten so far is that Don Wetzel's wife (he of course was famous for the jet RDC project) picked out the jade green from swatches. If there is a picture of the 5-axle FM in this scheme it does not appear to be in any of Ed Nowak's published material ... and it would be strange indeed not to see it feature in one of those compilations. That would mean that the postcard-trading community, which is notably close-mouthed about what it does or doesn't have until you're ready to trade, and also notoriously concerned with any kind of publication that might interfere with their sales market, might be the only real hope left.
NYC got much more life out of at least one of these than I'd expect, in large part via re-engining at Collinwood (to a decidedly Christine-ish lower horsepower!) There was an article in MR on detailing one of these conversions (on a more typical C-liner) in June 2002. Stands to reason that if the jade/script were applied to the locomotive it might have been done as part of that shopping, or soon afterward.
Now, you know, I wondered long ago why there was no attempt to put a turbocharged 645 into one of those CPA-24-5s, as there was both the weight-bearing and cooling to support one. Just as it makes little sense to use a Roots-blown 16-cylinder in a passenger engine, it would make sense to replace both the OP engine and Westinghouse generator with a 'unit' from EMD, but perhaps retain the Westinghouse motors... and this would give precisely the sort of single-unit power that a modern GP40 might represent... the 'point to ponder' being that such an experiment would be a perfect application of the 'new and improved' paint scheme. (And if it were in the works, but never came off, it would explain why there was supposed to be a jade-and-script unit that never quite made it mechanically to be sent to the paint shop...)
I have seen a picture of one (more or less derelict by that time) in Erie, in five-stripe lightning gray, dated March 1967.
Hi Vince! And everyone else!
I'm up here in Pennsylvania on a hotel guest computer. Other people's computers are like other people's kitchens, nothing's where it's supposed to be! Takes some getting used to!
Anyway, I found a link to the URHS's "Jade Green" E-Unit. Hope it works...
https://www.urhs.org/locomotives#nyc-4083
Bingo!
Anyway, we're heading off to niece Stephanie's in a hour or so for some heavy yard work, it's going to be the "Lansdale Chainsaw Massacre!"
"Bwah-ha-ha-ha!"
Flintlock/Wayne -- good to see you are able to communicate! Even on models the jade green looks a bit wonky on E units. I would however luv to see it on a NYC CLiner, with the script logo, if the story is real.
Hope you are enjoying yourself.
That's the United Rail Historical Society in New Jersey who painted an E unit in the NYC "Jade Green" scheme. I've only seen photographs of it but personally I don't think it looks as good as the grey with lightning stripes scheme.
Miningman ... assume the Jade Green didn't hold up too well, it got real streaky (rust stains) on the rolling stock.
I did not particularly agree with the 'dip' jade green. But one of the preserved E units (4083) was purposefully repainted in this scheme not long ago, and it might be interesting to see how it held up afterward...
Hmmm.. that would be very interesting .. did not know that ( I think) .. assume the Jade Green didn't hold up too well, it got real streaky ( rust stains) on the rolling stock.
There were several IHB switchers that were painted in Jade Green with a red lightning stripe in the early to mid 1960's.
Terrific information 16-567D3A. FM CPA #4505 in Century Green with Script Herald! Wow! That would be a sight. If it's true someone, somewhere has a picture.
Miningman By chance does anyone out there know when the New York Central gave up on the CLiners and the Baby Face Baldwin sets? I cannot seem to find any info. I'm guessing early 60's way before Penn Central but maybe I'm mistaken. Did either ever lose their stunning pinstripe paint to the cigar band like the Sharks did?
By chance does anyone out there know when the New York Central gave up on the CLiners and the Baby Face Baldwin sets? I cannot seem to find any info. I'm guessing early 60's way before Penn Central but maybe I'm mistaken. Did either ever lose their stunning pinstripe paint to the cigar band like the Sharks did?
Overmod Flintlock76 In addition to being wrong it also leads to the idea of preferring to cut your own throat before you're willing to admit you were wrong! The Navy is notorious for likely ruining more than the last third of the Twentieth Century with a few cold-soldered joints. (And I don't mean on the USS Eldridge or with weird Tom Brown)
Flintlock76 In addition to being wrong it also leads to the idea of preferring to cut your own throat before you're willing to admit you were wrong!
The Navy is notorious for likely ruining more than the last third of the Twentieth Century with a few cold-soldered joints. (And I don't mean on the USS Eldridge or with weird Tom Brown)
Yep. RIP Lt. Joe Kennedy Jr., USN. Who knows what turn history might have taken had he not been killed, as Overmod said, by some lousy cold-solder joints.
Flintlock76In addition to being wrong it also leads to the idea of preferring to cut your own throat before you're willing to admit you were wrong!
And people believe "group-think" is a recent idea! It's as old as the human race itself, and it's nearly always wrong. In addition to being wrong it also leads to the idea of preferring to cut your own throat before you're willing to admit you were wrong! Hence the lattice mast "experiment." Among other things, then and now.
The Japanese "pagoda" superstructures? I don't know much about them, they look a bit bizarre, but obviously they worked for the Japanese. The thing with naval architecture and design is there's always compromises that have to be made and some times there's no real "right or wrong," jusr different approaches.
I happen to think that building is stunning. Go figger.
What magician could have placed the corrupted flesh of the two cantaloups, PRR and NYC, under a cloth, waved his hands over the coverlet, and then whisked it away to reveal something of use already morphed, or that would have become good over time? Without knowing or understanding the genisis of the rot, what could any sane person have hoped would come of the magic?
Over time, the best and most productive way to alter the course of a business is to bring in someone who does not have history with it. Someone who won't play favourites, who sees things closely as they really are, who will ask questions and evaluate the responses critically, and who can always be counted on to keep his eye on the ball (of turning a profit for a change). If it were me, and the formal scrapping of every steam locomotive would have allowed me to show a USD$200 profit after the second year into strictly diesel, I would have done so. It was my agreement at hire after all.
Flintlock76As the saying goes, "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"
It was a dumb idea at any time; particularly silly because they started being used in an era autogenous welding was becoming well-established on railroads like ATSF. (Ridiculously early, as things turned out, but surely adequate to take the lost motion forever out of lattice construction).
It does have to be said that deflection during firing would be more interesting for a guyed-spar construction than compression lattice, if 'wiggling like Jell-O' is the issue. The problem was more in the detail design than in the conception ... reminds me of the Jacobs-Shupert firebox.
You'd think there would be common sense once the first firing exercises were conducted during proving. Wouldn't be the first time the Navy built something it would rather defend than improve.
What's your take on Japanese 'pagoda' masts?
Oh brother, that "Hyperboloid" building is ug-leee!
Reminds me of the lattice masts that were installed on American battleships of the World War One era, have a look...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_mast#/media/File:Uss_south_carolina_bb.jpg
Built as a way to lessen top-weight, they weren't too popular with the men who had to man the tops to spot artillery fire. The things wiggled like bowls of Jell-O when the main batteries fired. Some were a bit fragile and susceptible to damage from heavy weather. Most had been replaced by the time of Pearl Harbor.
As the saying goes, "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"
Hey Backshop.. good for you! Congrats.
Miningman 3, not around the yard though. 1969 Chevrolet Malibu Convertable , 1973 Covette and 1982 Corvette ( not the special edition jobie) ..!! Wish I had kept one of 2 International TravelAll's. Must be a million miles on the Malibu. Have no idea.
3, not around the yard though. 1969 Chevrolet Malibu Convertable , 1973 Covette and 1982 Corvette ( not the special edition jobie) ..!!
Wish I had kept one of 2 International TravelAll's. Must be a million miles on the Malibu. Have no idea.
I "kinda-sorta" wish I still had my '94 Cavalier. Got 265,000 miles out of it. It was still running strong but was getting rickety, so it was time to let it go.
Interesting thing though, if I was parked by a railroad track watching trains and a GM diesel rolled past the whole car trembled. Sympathetic vibration? I don't know, but no car I've had since has done the same thing!
I miss my PT Cruiser, fun car to drive, but my sister-in-law's hubby Warren, who's a car guy told me "Chrysler makes good cars, but they don't age very well."
He was right.
So long, mid-life Chrysler!
Oh well, the Hy-yun-dai-yay's worked out pretty good.
It's interesting how two people can like the same thing for different reasons, depending on their ages. Miningman loves and misses the CASO because of the Hudsons, etc, and the passenger trains. I always liked it because of the GMDL built Geeps. In fact, the Morning Sun Conrail Power books has a few pics I took of them in it. Too bad they misspelled my name, but no big deal.
To oversimplify things, I'll play devil's advocate and ask the question: How many of your perevious personal automobiles do you have on display around your yard? (I used to throw rocks at my Dodge. )
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
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