Penny Trains BaltACD Watching a PBS documentary on the Voyager space craft That was a good one. I especially like the story about how the last time the planets aligned perfectly for a mission like that, Thomas Jefferson was in the white house and "he blew it".
BaltACD Watching a PBS documentary on the Voyager space craft
That was a good one. I especially like the story about how the last time the planets aligned perfectly for a mission like that, Thomas Jefferson was in the white house and "he blew it".
I guess that sending Lewis & Clarke across the continent 2 centuries ago was about the equivalent of today's interplanetary mission.
BaltACDWatching a PBS documentary on the Voyager space craft
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
It's a shame. If and when the golden record is ever found there's going to be some disappointed alien steam freaks!
Watching a PBS documentary on the Voyager space craft that were launced in 1977 with the missions to get gravity assists from Jupiter, Saturn and the other outer planets of the Solar System to speed the crafts exit from the Solar System (that has taken about 37 years or more). The craft contain a 'golden record' that contains images and audio from what constitutes 'Earth People' as they existed at the time - one of the images is Amtrak's Turbo Train ... Ironic!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Most important thing is that you enjoy them.
Backshop My take, as an outsider, is that toy trains are those like Lionel that don't even look close to being modeled after a real prototype while model railroads are those whose equipment looks (sorta) like real equipment, just shrunk down. So, if you have a Lionel train on the floor with 3 rail track and no scenery, it's a toy train. If you have a fully landscaped HO set with accurately numbered and detailed locomotives, it's a model railroad.
My take, as an outsider, is that toy trains are those like Lionel that don't even look close to being modeled after a real prototype while model railroads are those whose equipment looks (sorta) like real equipment, just shrunk down. So, if you have a Lionel train on the floor with 3 rail track and no scenery, it's a toy train. If you have a fully landscaped HO set with accurately numbered and detailed locomotives, it's a model railroad.
I have a model railroad by your definition--but I realize they are all just toys--it's just that my model trains may be more accurate models than some are. So what. I'm still running them around a (folded dogbone) glorified circle of track. Mine are just higher priced toys...
PRR8259so picky and in utter denial that they are in fact playing with toys
If you take 5,280 and divide it by 87 you get 60.6896551724. That means you need 60+ linear feet for one HO scale mile. Most railroads don't run just one mile point to point and zero railroads run in a circle or oval. Even a dogbone track arangement wouldn't be prototypical in less than 20 scale miles, or 1,213.79310344 feet. I don't think I've ever seen a model railroad that ran 20 scale miles point to point in even the smallest of scales. Who has that kind of room? There are some very large structures on the market like defunct shopping malls but they'd be out of reach to most modelers.
No, I think that apparently some feel the need to justify their hobby by putting down those who choose to enjoy the larger and often VERY un-scale-like trains. There are a lot of nick-names out there both flattering and derogatory that I try to stay away from. Like the song says, "It's your thing, baby. Do what you wanna do."
Flintlock76 Backshop My take, as an outsider, is that toy trains are those like Lionel that don't even look close to being modeled after a real prototype while model railroads are those whose equipment looks (sorta) like real equipment, just shrunk down. So, if you have a Lionel train on the floor with 3 rail track and no scenery, it's a toy train. If you have a fully landscaped HO set with accurately numbered and detailed locomotives, it's a model railroad. Good points Backshop, and well put. But if you think Lionels ain't prototypical you haven't looked at 'em for a while. Take a look at this... http://www.lionel.com Have a look at MTH too... https://www.mthtrains.com Mind you, the prices on some of these things hardly qualifies them as "toys," unless you look at the starter sets, but some of them are pretty darn authentic. Welcome to the 21st Century world of "O" and "S" gauge! PS: Don't worry if you feel heart palpitations looking at the prices of the "high-end" articles, I get palpitations too!
Good points Backshop, and well put.
But if you think Lionels ain't prototypical you haven't looked at 'em for a while. Take a look at this...
http://www.lionel.com
Have a look at MTH too...
https://www.mthtrains.com
Mind you, the prices on some of these things hardly qualifies them as "toys," unless you look at the starter sets, but some of them are pretty darn authentic.
Welcome to the 21st Century world of "O" and "S" gauge!
PS: Don't worry if you feel heart palpitations looking at the prices of the "high-end" articles, I get palpitations too!
Remember - the difference between men and boys is the price of the toys. Added to that is the addage - If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it!
Another take on the definition of the "classic era"...it's whatever period each individual looks back fondly on as better and nicer. It's usually the time before we got caught up in real life and responsibilities.
PRR, I like your attitude!
You see, every once in a great while I look in on the "Model Railroader" Forum, and let me tell you some of those guys take this stuff WAY too seriously!
For example, on one occasion there was a guy agonizing over where to prototypically put the air conditioning vents on top of a passenger car of an obscure railroad! Cryin' out loud man, who cares?
If it gets to be a burden, it ain't fun, unless you're a masochist!
Some of them seem to be working overtime reenforcing the popular public perception of model railroaders as social misfits, but that's another story.
Anyway, I found this neat short video, plenty of "Classics" in it from several eras, enough to keep everyone happy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DhzACiHwfA
Wayne--
I've been an HO guy most of my life but I fail to understand why they are genereally so picky and in utter denial that they are in fact playing with toys.
I'm playing with brass Alco/MLW Century and M-series units, but I freely admit they are just toys and yes, I do actually play with them on the layout. They earn their keep just like anything else. In fact, I'm told that properly tuned and cared for brass diesels will actually outlast the plastic ones!
They are all just toys, though, and reflect the minor compromises necessary to scale things down. "Model" is just a fancy name for "toy".
John
Heck we all do that! I think. Sometimes I even put on my very authentic CPR conductor blazer and the cap. Now to get up, and this applies to being under a module as well to fix something, you put out one arm and grab something solid, like a chair. Then the other hand the same but different, maybe the edge of table. Then move one leg out bent at the knee. Take deep breath. Wait at least one minute and think positive. Haul yourself up. Take a 5 minute break. If this fails then go to "help I've fallen and get get up mode" which involves waiting a long time. Oh by the way keep the smokes and lighter nearby, maybe shirt pocket, very important.
If any of this applies to you then you are Classic Era. If not then that's the dividing line. Simple
Becky, "Classic TOY Trains" was certainly a perfect compromise. We O and S gaugers don't agonize over our trains, we PLAY with 'em!
Yep, I'll sit there with a cuppa coffee and a smoke and watch 'em go 'round and round. Remember getting down on the floor under the Christmas tree and watching 'em come right-at-cha? I still do it! Although it's harder to get up now, for some damn reason...
What can I say? I'm easily amused.
Wayne
Flintlock76 Well guys, remember what I said earlier, there's no right-or-wrong here, the only important thing is a good discussion.
Well guys, remember what I said earlier, there's no right-or-wrong here, the only important thing is a good discussion.
Precisely. Reminds me of what Dick Christianson and crew went through when they were trying to come up with a name for what became Classic TOY Trains magazine. For those who don't know, the delicate political balance between collectors and operators was the problem. Very similar to steam vs. diesel in most respects. The compromise was to add "For the collector and operator" to the magazine's name. But do we really need to go that far with CT?
As someone who was a kid during the 1970's, I patently reject the notion that it was somehow the "dark ages" of the diesel era.
There was a huge variety of motive power and paint schemes on the rails, and the bicentennial equipment just added to it.
I've watched many videos of the 1970's, and there was much more variety on Cajon and Tehachapi than in later years when it seemed to be all SD40/45 variants.
Even into the 1980's lots of neat equipment was still around.
In our state, automobiles older than 25 years are eligible for the Classic plates.
So why does Classic have to be 50 years?
Another reason they may want to keep with the 50 year window is strictly practical. Any older than that and you won't have any writers who experienced it. Unless you just want reprints of old Trains articles, it would all have to be highly researched stuff instead of personal experiences. That may be practical for books but not so much for a magazine. I like the articles by JDI about his railfanning "safaris" the best.
John,
Being a '54 baby, the steam era is to me what the general consensus is for the "Classic" era for you. I do see an ad for Classic Trains while typing this that states the focus is the 1920's to the 1970's (not quite the 80's). Railroading in the 1980's was significantly different than even at the end of the classic era, which is not to say that there weren't a lot of items of interest from that era. An example is that a few of the first generation San Diego Trolleys are finding their way to museums and there are many other aspects of that era worth preserving.
As for where to discuss 1980's era railroading, the Trains magazine forums are apt to have more discussions on that era than this one (this is NOT intended to mean you would be unwelcome here - welcome mat is out for everyone). Prototype information for modeler's may be another source. I'd also figure that in 10 years, the 1980's would be part of the classic era.
- Erik
P.S. I have a lot of memories of railroading in the 1970's: early 1970's BN coal trains; brand new Espee SD45T2 rolling past the Richmond BART station, BART when new; Amtrak with Heritage cars; DD35's.
P.P.S. A couple of RR books from my late father-in-law where from the immediate post-war era and were about the approaching demise of mixed train short line railroading - Beebe's Mixed Train Daily was one of them.
I think this kind of a discussion will alienate some people. Born in '68, the contemporary widecab diesels just don't do it for me. I have tried to embrace steam, have owned all kinds of steam models, but at the end of the day I have no real connection to that time period. I had several friends who were into steam particularly the brass models of it. They are mostly dead, or else no longer doing anything with model trains, or have "modernized" to 2nd or 3rd generation diesels. My interest in steam passed with my friends.
My son is going to like this current era because it is what he sees.
As for me, I did have fleeting glimpses of Reading Alco Centuries and a road trip to Erie in which I saw CP's big MLW's.
To me Classic could be early 80's on back. A C44-9W just can't compare to an M-636 especially if it's Mexican, for me.
So where is someone like me supposed to go? If not here.
Flintlock76Even though the "Robber Barons" had their assortment of looters, the difference between the looters of those days and ours is the "Robber Barons," while certainly out for the money, were always looking for ways to grow the businesses they were involved in.
Keep in mind that the 'Raubenritter' are a specific historical reference, which has little to do with financial manipulations or 'steal a loaf of bread, go to prison; steal a railroad and go to Congress'. It refers to the extortion of as much money out of shippers and 'the public' as "the traffic will bear" -- for, as W.H. Vanderbilt put it so eloquently, the benefit of those able to compel it.
One might argue both ways about Vanderbilt's pre-Daniels dislike of any sort of high-speed tie-up-the-railroad special trains mandated by competition: we see the arguments right up into the PSR era both 'pro and 'con'. We also have a somewhat better idea of why drag-freight persisted into the truck era, and why so many railroads that didn't understand -- or don't yet comprehend -- the importance of assured satisfactory service still have problems ... unless they have stranded business!
Now, on general principles I find it hard to condemn corporate management for not looking out for the best interests of the stockholders, or in a more modern era, the stakeholders. One might also point out that those with the greatest actual impact on how things are done (and not just the obvious 'names' like Barriger or Perlman or quite arguably EHH in many respects, but the relatively unsung guys in regionals and short lines) have always been those willing to build up the plant and effectively improve things, rather than cut to the bone, abuse an adversarial work force, pare operations back to where only 'convenient' traffic gets served or close the railroad in favor of cheaper modes, etc. And frankly I support those who build up and shake up, even when they're financial manipulators like the van Sweringens or Bob Young.
For some reason I am drawn to the standardised "Eras" used by modellers of German Railways. So far there are five eras.
Era 1 = Railways of the German States up until 1925
Era 2 = The Deutsche Reichsbahn up until 1945
Era 3 = The Bundesbahn (West) and Reichsbahn (East) pre computer numbering
Era 4 = Bundesbahn and Reichsbahn up to German Reunification
Era 5 = Post Unification including Privatisation
From these any intermediate point could be chosen as ending the "Classic Era"
What are the equivalent change points for USA Railroads?
I could suggest:
the USRA Administration
the introduction of Streamliners (say 1934)
the widespread introduction of diesel locomotives.
the Penn Central Merger and formation of Amtrak
These are just suggestions, but the Classic Era could be considered to be before any of these points.
Peter
BaltACD Flintlock76 'Balt, even though a past history doesn't make it right "looting" a railroad is nothing new. Ever read the history of the Erie in the 19th Century? Ay-yi-yi..., as my grandfather used to say. Hence the phrase 'Robber Barons'. However there is a difference, the Robber Barons were trying to expand the reach of their robberies. Today's looters are just extracting proceeds from contraction and not rolling it into the continued benefits of the remaining property.
Flintlock76 'Balt, even though a past history doesn't make it right "looting" a railroad is nothing new. Ever read the history of the Erie in the 19th Century? Ay-yi-yi..., as my grandfather used to say.
Ever read the history of the Erie in the 19th Century? Ay-yi-yi..., as my grandfather used to say.
Hence the phrase 'Robber Barons'.
However there is a difference, the Robber Barons were trying to expand the reach of their robberies. Today's looters are just extracting proceeds from contraction and not rolling it into the continued benefits of the remaining property.
'Balt, what you said is certainly true. Even though the "Robber Barons" had their assortment of looters, the difference between the looters of those days and ours is the "Robber Barons," while certainly out for the money, were always looking for ways to grow the businesses they were involved in. Can't say the same for today's looters, by any means.
If I had to pick a date, I would say the classic era ended in 1971, the day Amtrak took over. It not only affected passenger service, but it put the railroads solely in the freight business. But I could see the magazine's benefit of a 50 year sliding cut-off.
Flintlock76'Balt, even though a past history doesn't make it right "looting" a railroad is nothing new. Ever read the history of the Erie in the 19th Century? Ay-yi-yi..., as my grandfather used to say.
'Balt, even though a past history doesn't make it right "looting" a railroad is nothing new.
Now 'scuse me for a bit, I have to go back and drool over that picture of the Lionel 400E Penny Trains posted! WOW!
The nominal period from 1980 and the implementation of Staggers to approximately 2000 was the 'Plant Rationalization' period. The period where the carriers did their best to jetison lines that did not support the level of traffic they desired - these lines were either abandoned outright or conveyed to Short Lines - either sold or leased. In leasing the carriers still retained ownership but the got rid of all the other requirements of operating and maintaining the trackage - the short line had to provide manpower, motive power and maintenance for the line - the owning carrier would have to pay taxes on the property, however, those were more than offset by the amount received from the lease agreement.
Today the hedge fund controlling CSX is now selling off their previously leased short lines to forego the sustained 'income over time' of the lease to obtain the one time purchase amount that can then be liberated from the CSX treasury in the name of 'shareholder value'. Looting!
I'm inclined to using 1970 for the end of the classic era. This was shortly after the end of mail trains causing the end of a large number of passenger trains, the end D&RGW narrow gauge (excepting D&S and C&TS), the FT, construction of big locomotives for UP (GTEL, double diesels), PRR, NYC and NH disappearing into PC and the end of Alco. !970 had the bankruptcy of the PC and the formation of the BN. Shortly after was Amtrak, the end of electric operation on the Milwaukee.
I see the period of 1970 to the early 1980's as the interregnum between the Classic era and the post Staggers revival.
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