1947 Cruise Train Holiday

[Miningman]

The real reason for this posting is that the whole day has gone by without a comment or a posting on Classic Trains which I find a bit troubling. Now I know all of you have seen this before but it's still just so perfect. It came to mind with the HSR thread over on Trains. Certainly not anything HSR but it was a wonderful long distance holiday cruise train. More than that though, it ran in all weather, was dependable and it was safe and secure. You could get there in comfort and with your dignity. Hopefully well rested but if not at least well fed. Luv that cowboy, nice touch. 

[Flintlock76]

Yeah Vince, things have been awful slow here a bit lately.  A bit ominous, but maybe no-one's got anything to talk about?

Things have been awful slow on the "Classic Toy Trains" Forum as well.  I punched things up with a YouTube video of a club layout visit, which all seemed to enjoy.

Love that poster!  Great trains and a cowboy, American icons!

[Overmod]

Well, they specifically note 'super-speed service' in the ad, certainly far from sedate cruising (for which the California Zephyr might be the contemporary poster child).  

This is likely before Naperville and the ICC Order that ended the burgeoning of 'fast as it would go' postwar streamlined trains.  And with a name and on a railroad that epitomized 100mph as a magic service speed in America.

Note how many years were required to make "HSR" a desirable thing, and the strained successes involved with commercializing it.  By which time anyone caring to go quickly from Chicago to the PNY would be flying ... or not really considering the MILw's PCE as a route of high speed...

 

[Miningman]

Thanks for pointing that out Overmod. I was going to mention the 'super speed service' moniker and I'm sure they did some fast running here and there along the route. I'm sure the track was in good shape during this period. 

How else could you get to the West Coast in 1947 and for a while beyond that, especially over the winter or bad weather, fog, high winds and so on. Even driving along the Northern route would be a bit treacherous in 1947. 

Anyway nice train, beautiful well thought out made by Milwaukee in their own shops cars. It would have been adventurous and quite the experience. They sure as heck were proud of it. Gone in 1961 so rather short lived and I'm sure mostly a drain on the treasury.  

I think the Olympian itself had an open end brass railed observation car as its tail right up to its discontinuance. 

I'm sure there are some fine tales and rememberances that are fading fast.  

Must have been a dark day for the employees when the train was discontinued. 

More on the Milwaukee 

 

 

http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/brouchures.html

[Erik_Mag]

The post-war Olympian Hiawatha had the Sky Top observation car shown in the ad. I did ride the Olympian between Seattle and Miles City in 1957, at the ripe old age of 33 months, I don't remember much - though distinctly remember being in a train.

[Miningman]

That's pretty impressive Eric Mag. Amazing isn't it! Nice.

In the attached advert above the Milwaukee states running over a hundred miles per hour over sections and is proud of its " roadbed famous for its smoothness assuring maximum silence, cleanliness and comfort". 

Im sure it was for some time but it all went to pieces later with frequent  and costly derailments of valuable freight. 

How long did the FM Erie builds actually last on the Olympian Hiawatha and what was their big downfall. Must of been a huge shock and disappointment. 

 

[Deggesty]

Erik_Mag

The post-war Olympian Hiawatha had the Sky Top observation car shown in the ad. I did ride the Olympian between Seattle and Miles City in 1957, at the ripe old age of 33 months, I don't remember much - though distinctly remember being in a train.

 

I beat you you by 8 months for my first trip--my mother and five brothers moved from near Tampa to a small town in South Carolina when i was not much over two. I do remember looking out the window after we left Jacksonville--my brothers were puuting a coat over the heads to shut in the inside light out, and they let me look out the same way; I do not remember anything I saw, onlythe method of seeing outside at night. Several years later, my mother told me that I began screaming after we left Plant CIty, and did not stop until we reached the next town. I did get over that feeling, for I enjoyed a trip she and my youngest brother tookk to Virginia about three years later--and I remember some of the detailsof the train travel.

[Overmod]

Miningman

How long did the FM Erie-builts actually last on the Olympian Hiawatha and what was their big downfall.

I wouldn't say they were a disappointment (other than the usual complaints common to first-generation passenger power) -- most if not all survived long enough to be put in that 'commodity' UP paint scheme, and the real thing that killed them was the discontinuation of the Olympian Hi as a through train (in 1961) at which point the existing stock of E and passenger F units was adequate for passenger requirements.  They were traded in 'expediently' for much more useful GP30s (on drop-equalizer trucks, and possibly with the Erie-Built traction motors in them, which were tank-like compared with, say, D-77s).  I doubt there was much point in trying any first-generation A-1-A passenger locomotive without back transition on freight; the only even partial success I remember from that was PRR's use of the BP-20 boosters between Sharks, and that for not too long (although it would have been interesting to see how long if PRR hadn't culled most of the early Baldwins at about the same time in the early '60s that these Erie-builts went to trade).

The principal FM shop appears to have been in Milwaukee, and as long as the locomotives stayed reasonably close to there they could be maintained adequately (e.g., the shopmen wouldn't take the seven pennies off the governor spring).  The official 'story' seems to be that the Eries were taken off the west part of the Olympian Hi as a response to that late-Forties coal strike, and never sent back either to the 'gap' or the part west of the outer electrification -- this just before, please note, the extensive rebuilding of the bipolars to allow higher road speed.  But they continued to be used on eastern-end trains, notably from Milwaukee to Madison, until the end.

(And it might be noted that the railroad still actively used both C-Liners and switchers with OP engines at that time, so it wasn't any inherent failure or cost of the diesel engines that led to the decision to trade the Eries...)  On the other hand, I have my doubts about the physical truck design, at least that of the first examples.  Fairly grave doubts...

[Miningman]

Well thank you Overmod. Fills in a lot of gaps for me. Did not know the Erie builds made it to UP yellow or even that the OP engines were in use right to the end. 

Their original purpose of a powerful A-B-A set to the West Coast as advertised and proudly promoted ( easily conquering mountain grades at speed with power to spare),  was a short lived thing. I always assumed it was due to an inherent major flaw or serious problems with the OP engine. 

[Flintlock76]

You know, those Erie-builts were good-looking machines.

But even with no major flaws I suppose they succumbed for the same reasons all the other first-generation  diesel "oddballs" did.  It was a lot easier for the 'roads to standardise with EMD products.  EMD built excellent diesels, and their supply and support services were second to none.  No-one at the time could match them.

And of course, the "oddballs" are always the first to go.  

[BaltACD]

While the may have been Erie built - the realtity is that Beloit, WI was the home of the Fairbanks-Morse OP engines.  Suspect some of the FM technicians from Beloit most likely ended up on the MILW's Milwaukee locomotive shop forces and applied TLC to the FM machines that worked through the shop.

[MidlandMike]

I have been slow to catch up on the forums as I have been at the 150th anniversary Golden Spike festivities.  I wonder if others have been pre-occupied by the events as a reason for slower forum traffic.

[Overmod]

MidlandMike

I wonder if others have been pre-occupied by the events as a reason for slower forum traffic.

I hope so ... and am looking forward to the stories.

[Miningman]

Midland Mike-- So you made it despite the derailment. That's great. Yeah looking forward to the Forum members accounting of events. 

[Jones1945]

Overmod

(And it might be noted that the railroad still actively used both C-Liners and switchers with OP engines at that time, so it wasn't any inherent failure or cost of the diesel engines that led to the decision to trade the Eries...)  On the other hand, I have my doubts about the physical truck design, at least that of the first examples.  Fairly grave doubts...

Would you mind sharing your thoughts about the truck design of the Erie-Built? MILW's FM Erie-Built is one of my top 5 favorite postwar diesel engines. I especially love the color matching of its livery and that ribbed stainless steel plate decoration on the front end. But I didn't pay enough attention to the drop equalizer on their trucks.

As a railfan, the cruise train is definitely a travel option for my family, but it is not hard to comprehend that many travelers preferred not to stay on a train for too long when they could find the same level of luxury in the hotel or resort, they would rather travel by air and spend the time to visit different places instead of sleeping in the roomette.  I remember when we discussing dining service and facilities on classic LD train, we mentioned about some research says that many passengers did not enjoy eating with strangers in the dining car (of course!), I believe the same thing could apply to all amenity on any long-distance overnight train in different eras as well.

Unlike the cruise ship, space on a train is limited by the track gauge, speed and time are limited by the infrastructure and the train itself. There are some successful examples of modern cruise train like the Rocky Mountaineer but I don't think Amtrak could obtain enough resource to upgrade their named train like the California Zephyr to that level...

http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/brouchures.html

[Overmod]

Jones1945

Would you mind sharing your thoughts about the truck design of the Erie-Built?

The trucks on the units you pictured are virtually flawless.  They are very similar to the ones under Alco PAs; in fact, the trucks under Doyle's rebuilt "190" are in fact Erie-Built trucks (taken from the rail-grinding equipment that I wish had been more fully preserved and given the treatment that old SP camera-car was...)

The original 'fabricated' trucks on the Eries (as sent to UP) were not duplicated; I remember reading something about them but don't remember the horror stories.  But I believe some of the subsequent production had Commonwealth trucks, to which only two words are really necessary:  Gravel Gerties.  If there is something to be said for this style as a self-powered bogie, I haven't read it.

[Jones1945]

Thanks, Overmod. The fabricated truck design on Eries was prone to cracking, I still wonder if it was a "design of expediency" during the later stage of WWII. 

[Overmod]

Jones1945

I still wonder if it was a "design of expediency" during the later stage of WWII.

I don't think so (at least not in the sense you're probably thinking).  On the other hand, it is distantly possible that some production cheapening of the quality in the material used to make and assemble the truck components, or some compromise in the welding technique that wouldn't exist aside from wartime restrictions, contributed to the cracking tendency (I am reminded, although of course not analogically, of the Liberty-ship cracks)

The fabricated design was a clear attempt to get around the issues of Commonwealth-style truck construction (while probably avoiding aspects of EMD's A-1-A "Blomberg" patent).  There were other announced uses of welding to "lighten" frames and other construction in this period, one memorable example being Bulleid's adoption of WWII U-boat fabrication practice in a number of areas.  His 'centerless' truck designs were significant then and now.

We've had periodic resort to lighter-weight truck construction over the years.  The 'hollow bolster' controversy with the SDP40Fs is one in particular that you might want to examine.

Railroad engineers tinkering with the dual objectives of minimized unsprung mass and highly controlled damping in all axes have often underestimated the actual peak shock forces that can initiate or propagate stress failures in lighter-weight construction (often, paradoxically, in areas where lightweight but strong construction 'transitions' to thicker material or castings -- a significant issue in welded-boiler design).  In a 1940s design without explicit vertical or horizontal damping, and on post-war 'undermaintained trackage', I wouldn't be surprised to find cracking in even a sensibly-dimensioned fabricated truck -- it would be highly valuable to see actual reports of where the cracking was observed, and the extent to which it had propagated when detected.

[Jones1945]

Overmod

We've had periodic resort to lighter-weight truck construction over the years.  The 'hollow bolster' controversy with the SDP40Fs is one in particular that you might want to examine.

Thank you for the thorough and nutritious explanation, Overmod. Now I understand why the size of the fabricated equalizer design of the Eries was so much smaller than the drop equalizer design. It does look like it was carefully designed instead of something designed for temporary use. I believe UP still have the report you would like to read since their Eries were geared to lead passenger train at 103mph; as you stated that post-war trackage was undermaintained, it is not hard to imagine the damage on those trucks at such high speed.