Mercury cycle in a locomotive???? While scary, it does sound safer than using concentrated H2O2 to power a submarine.
I'd be tempted to design the bottoming steam cycle more as a means of making an effective condensor for the mercury cycle. I'm guessing that best efficiency would be acheived by condensing the mercury below 400F, which would limit steam pressure to maybe 100psig. Since the exhaust would be at atmospheric pressure, the low pressure end of the turbine would be reasonably compact.
My main concern would be figuring out the electric transmission on this beast, the sealed turbine generator means AC coming out of the generator. With 1940 technology the least gross options would be configurable cascade connections with wound rotor induction traction motors or a -ahem- mercury rectifier and DC traction motors.
The advances in steam turbine technology pretty much killed off the interest in mercury cycles, though the nuclear generating station in Heinlein's "Blowups Happen" used a mercury topping cycle (written in 1941). What RAH described in his story gets a lot of details close to being right, e.g. being off by only a factor of two of the explosive yield from fissioning 2.5 tons of U-235. One thing he did get right was that "artificial radioactives" would save a lot of lives, without Tc-99m, I probably wouldn't be alive.
Having said all that, it would have been fun to see such a locomotive hauling the NYC's Mercury...
Here. specifically to help welcome Vince back, is this little piece from The Hartford's house magazine, with a little on the mining aspects of the mercury involved. And in case you were wondering what a Field tube was ...
Holeee Moleeee, did not know this. Thanks for answering the Overmod signal!
Great reading. Despite the obvious they never really gave up on the idea. I do not think this would ever had actually made it into an operating locomotive any more than the nuclear 'atomic' powered locomotive.
Makes one wonder what was actually built that we don't know about in some far flung secret corner of the world.
Well at least everyone was thinking and applying good science and recognized the reality of the situation.
These articles are keepers. Our Power Engineering fella will be most interested.
MiningmanHave I ever heard of this before? Mercury!? I don't think I have.
Ding! Ding!! Ding!!!
I will need to look up the specifics of any locomotive application of a mercury turbine -- as I think the practical implications (judging by power-station experience with the cycle) would be long-term insurmountable. On the other hand, at almost the exact time this article was coming out, the B&O was investing 'big time' in front-end stokers (they acquired 74 of them, apparently, before deciding the idea wasn't good, as Frank Black might say) and I'll bet no one here has heard a peep about them, either...
As I recall, the practical mercury turbine cycle was floated by General Electric in the early Twenties (about the time metallurgy produced turbine blading that would stand up to* potential amalgamation) as a more practical expansion of the water Rankine cycle than the use of ether bottoming in the 1850s. The idea was to use furnace heat to generate very-high-temperature mercury vapor, the expansive force of which is backed up by relatively high specific heat content, use this in a primary turbine (and the usual set of bleeds), then condense the mercury in the equivalent of a HRSG plus superheaters to provide a high-quality Rankine cycle without the issues involved in doing high-pressure heat transfer directly from fire to water. For a variety of reasons this is attractive thermodynamically, and the mercury turbine itself is valuable as a topping device for a relatively small but intense furnace). Here is a page from ASME with a linked article on one of the engineers who worked on the idea.
As you might suspect, the inimitable Douglas Self has something good to say about this. Pay careful attention to the note about the use of spiral bending "to relieve tubing of impact of mercury in 20-ft. drop" -- there is nearly 70 tons oh wait, apparently 90 tons of the stuff circulating in there.
As someone pointed out to me at college, this approach foundered for a relatively predictable fundamental reason. Anyone who has been around normal power stations knows that the atmosphere tends to be on the hot and oppressive side -- due to various leaks. Now imagine a similar situation with invisible mercury vapor. Not precisely a happy thought -- and now imagine you're in a locomotive maintained in the fashion typical of the mid-Forties. Much less happy ... and that's before we start commenting about the relatively 'safe' use of very high pressure that the indirect-heating method permits. One of the greatest alleged reasons for the relative 'failure to thrive' of the NYC high-pressure 4-8-4 was that the very large and centrally-located pressure gauge on the backhead was supposed to have its hand on 850psi most of the time: Jacob Perkins et al. weren't afraid of 2000psi pressures, but I'd sure not be surprised if NYC engineers who had risen through the ranks and knew the dread nature of steam well could learn to be so sanguine ... even if they trusted Alco and the management as far as they sanely could.
Erik can probably calculate a reasonable budget in terms of cwt of mercury for a reasonable-size ... call it 6000hp to match a Niagara; not much point in an expensive combined-cycle plant for locomotives much smaller ... coal-burning plant. Thermodynamicist 'common sense' would try using a cyclone burner as the primary fire, with the usual-suspects Rankine cycle through convection to FWH bleeds and ultimately Franco-Crosti air preheat and final feedwater warming; this design would be able to 'safely' use the very high generated temperature heat flux from such a burner effectively, which I doubt a locomotive-sized direct steam-generating arrangement could manage ... Schmidt certainly couldn't come even close, and heaven knows enough people tried to make that horror pay.
What you use the output to do is another matter: the mercury turbine is probably going to be driving an alternator or generator of some kind (you will notice they solved the issue of shaft seals by encapsulating the whole turbine as in a hermetically-sealed compressor), as likely would at least the initial pass(es) of the developed high-pressure steam. Seeing how the PRR direct-drive V1 project got corrupted under progressive N&W tinkering, I'd lay even money on a pure steam-turbine-electric implementation with 'all wheels driven'... and it would have to be a LOT more wheels than those on the TE-1 to make the necessary power.
Yes, it would have been fun to watch; no, I would NOT want to have to be found responsible to pay for it, and NO, I would not want to have it operating near me. Anywhere near me. (Some of the comments regarding the German experimentation into multiple-nitrogen explosive materials come to mind, rather pointedly...)
Hope springs eternal, though; here is a PDF of a NASA tech discussion of the idea, used for topping, circa 1975, that was one of my introductions to the idea as a freshman in college...
*Such was the idea, at least. As I recall the reality turned out decidedly different over time, worse the longer you tried to run things. Decommissioning was no fun, either.
Hey, why did Kalmbach remove the functionality to change text size in a post? It was there, but I can't find it any more.
Thank you Wayne. Yeah I'm pushing it a bit here but how long can you stare out a window at still melting snow. Lots of birds about, coming in squadrons and digging through leaf litter on open ground. Keeping the emergent bug population in check I hope.
So what is this? On page marked 25, ( Railroad Equipment in Wartime) the last paragraph before the 'Possibilitues of post war air transportation' talk, is this:
" the possibility of a combined steam and mercury turbine locomotive which would cut water consumption in half and greatly reduce the fuel cost"
Have I ever heard of this before? Mercury!? I don't think I have.
Putting out the Overmod help signal.
Welcome back Vince! Back on "Classic" where you've been sorely missed!
Wayne
https://www.railpictures.net/photo/454039/
Bahn Frei, if I'm translating correctly, literally means ,"free road" in German, which is not one of my languages.
Shep would have the starting bugle of the race track begin his version of "Bahn Frei" which was conducted by Arthur Feidler of the Boston Pops. Plus, something was used to simulate the beating of horses hooves.
But I doubt that a double header passenger train ever ran that section of Rutland track, unless you count the milk train, which did carry a few passengers. I will be lucky if I ever see a single diesel ride that trackage, it's still there, but dormant. I think Midland Mike described a ride on the remnants of the Rutland. If I remember, he said he was told that line was too risky to chance taking the passengers over it.
Interesting. I don't know how Jean could make a racetrack connection with "Bahn Frei," the phrase means "Highball!" or the equivalent in German, so your mental images of a train were spot-on. I can see how it would make one think of a racetrack with the horses going full-blast however.
No matter, he had a good show.
Oh, that blonde cellist in the blue dress nearest the camera has a killer smile, doesn't she? Wow!
I just remembered. Every once in a great while I used to catch this great lady on late-night radio, when I was a bit older of course. Maybe some of you remember? WNEW-FM out of New York?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocvrdHhhNLE
I used to listen to Shep under the bed covers. But that theme "Bahn Frei," did conjur up images of a train in my head. Although, the version Jean Shepherd used was about the race track, as I recall.
I used to picture a passenger train headed by two steam locomotives travelling the 4 or so miles between North Bennington and Bennington at break neck speed. Although a crossing of the former Rutland was maybe a quarter mile away, no regular passenger train had crossed those rails since 1931. There was one steam powered excursion we rode out of Bennington in Sept '66. Those tracks are dormant now.
Thank You.
Good guess Father! I'll be 66 this August 28th. (Me 66? When did THAT happen?)
I remember Jean Shepard's radio show, but honestly didn't listen all that often. I has heavy into aircraft modeling by the time I was in 8th grade and usually listened to an "easy-listening" format radio station, WPAT out of Paterson NJ. The music soothed my jangled nerves when a project didn't go right.
I think Jean was on a bit late at night if I remember correctly. Mom set strict bedtimes on school nights.
I have read Jean's great book "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash," a classic!
Anyway, if you remember Jean, I'm sure you remember this great piece of music, it's got a railroad context, just so we don't stray too far off topic.
You'll just love the clouds of "steam." Yeah, Andre gets it, baby!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJLSQDMyDcs
Oh, and you can recieve modern digital broadcast TV signals with a conventional antenna, however you need a converter box to process them into something an older analog TV can use. Those with cable and older analog sets don't have to worry about it, the cable company takes care of the conversion for you.
I see a few remaining here in Southwestern PA. I thought nowadays you have to have cable with the way modern sets are made. I have one small tv .,but no cable. I only use it to watch movies; most of my train films are from a certain Vermont company.
Flintlock, I think you're about my age(66). Did you by any chance listen to Jean Shepherd as a kid? We used to get WOR in Vermont at night. I discovered him in the 8th grade and was hooked. He used to talk about trains, too; mostly in conjunction with his Army service.
They still exist. I have one on my roof. My attitude toward cable television is similar to that of Bruce Springsteen (57 channels and there's nothing on).
Hey, whatever works Becky!
Picking up on NDG's TV antenna tale I remember when our chimney-mounted antenna was damage in a windstorm. Dad went up a ladder to fix it and swore he'd never do it again. Dad hates ladders. Me too!
Anyway, he bought a bigger antenna and set it up in the attic, he also used a compass to point it at the Empire State Building where most (if not all) of the TV signals in the New York area came from. It worked out just fine.
When we had a summer house in Ocean Gate NJ Dad set up two antennas, one pointed towards New York, one pointed towards Philadelphia, since we were at the limit of the TV signals from both cities. Dad rigged up a knife switch to switch from one antenna to another, depending on who had the stronger signals that particular day.
It was a single-story house, Dad didn't mind going up to the roof on this one!
By the way, when was the last time any of you saw a TV antenna on a roof? Looks like they're all gone! Amazing!
NDGReception was by Rabbit Ears
Mine still is!
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
BigJim Wow! What a train (of thought) wreck! Remove two lower case letters and this thread gets completely derailed!
Wow! What a train (of thought) wreck! Remove two lower case letters and this thread gets completely derailed!
Yeah, ain't it fun?
No, it was adding lower-case letters that led to the problem. Then taking only one superfluous one away.
.
Ballentine Ale was one of the first 'empirical observations' I made with an interest in marketing. Ballentine was one of the significant advertisers in heavy rotation for sports in the 1960s, including heavy participation in stock-car racing on TV. When Ballentine stopped their heavy advertising (probably as airtime and rights costs and issues ballooned after the 1970s) their market correspondingly collapsed, to the point I was astounded to actually find Ballentine on a store shelf (but delighted!)
As a fan of Old India Pale Ale with those 'chick-chick' rings, I look forward to seeing it available again, and hopefully they've done as good a job with reverse engineering as was done for Natty Boh.
Flintlock76 ...the Ballantine name is fondly remembered. Speaking of memories, anyone remember this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCm3UEfRQv0
I thought I recognized the voice on the video, then I saw it was Mel Allen's, the Yankees announcer. He was a neighbor when I was growing up in suburban New York.
Johnny, according to "urban legend" the Ballantine "three rings" logo WAS inspired by wet rings on a bar-top. The then-owner of the company just happened to notice three interlocking wet rings there strictly by accident and took it from there.
Is it true? Who knows? It's as good an explaination as any!
Yes, Ballantine's used to be quite widespread. Growing up 50 miles south of Charlotte, N.C., I was familiar with it from the newspaper ads. In the early sixites, I was talking with a young lady from North Georgia, and idly placed three wet rings on a counter--and she knew their significance.
Johnny
Fr.Al I remember Rheingold. I also remember Piels from upstate New York. That was a favorite until I left for Texas in '77. In Texas, I drank Shiner Bock long before it went national. What bugs me is that Ballantine Ale is so hard to get. Here in Western PA, you can't get it. I'll have to remember to ask my niece in Reading if she can get it. I believe it's available around Philly.
I remember Rheingold. I also remember Piels from upstate New York. That was a favorite until I left for Texas in '77.
In Texas, I drank Shiner Bock long before it went national.
What bugs me is that Ballantine Ale is so hard to get. Here in Western PA, you can't get it. I'll have to remember to ask my niece in Reading if she can get it. I believe it's available around Philly.
I'll tell you Father, we're lucky to have Ballantine Ale around at all. Making a VERY long story short, Pabst bought Ballantine in the early '60s and then the brand began along, slow decline.
Ballantine Ale is produced by a new outfit now (who's name escapes me) but they cared enough to "reverse-engineer" the brew, the original formulas being lost along the way.
It may be available around Philly, I know it's generally available in northern New Jersey where the Ballantine name is fondly remembered.
Speaking of memories, anyone remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCm3UEfRQv0
Overmod Much of Shaffer's Crossing is still full of locomotives, some of them interesting (to fans of diesels).
Much of Shaffer's Crossing is still full of locomotives, some of them interesting (to fans of diesels).
Flintlock76Anyone remember "Rheingold?"
I officially knew it was the end of my childhood when they announced that brewery was closing. One of those things like Dorman's Endeco Cheese with the paper between the slices that the world is poorer without.
I remember the flap with Shaefer over 'the most rewarding flavor in this man's world'. Up to then I actually didn't think women drank beer! Sure learned different since!
OK, SHAEFER'S "...if you're having more than one." One "f". I forgot, it's been years.
Usually if I feel like a beer nowadays it's Molson Golden or Shiner Bock.
Anyone remember "Rheingold?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVvKJq_RmH0 There's even a little railroad content!
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