rcdrye The tourist sleeper from St. Louis was probably handled in another train west of Ogden, unless CB&Q specifically listed it as operating in SP 1 and 2. I'm pretty sure UP 21/22 were the "Pacific Limited" which had an SP counterpart 21/22 on a much slower schedule than the Overland. The Pacific Limited was handled by the CM&StP east of Omaha instead of the C&NW, at least for some period after 1913. The Dining car is listed with the San Francisco to Chicago equipment. Even if the reference is to Oakland, that still covers the whole trip. The Oakland to Chicago reference covers the Observation and Club cars. All of the sleepers except the observation were listed to San Francisco - a neat trick since the run ended at the Oakland Mole.
The tourist sleeper from St. Louis was probably handled in another train west of Ogden, unless CB&Q specifically listed it as operating in SP 1 and 2. I'm pretty sure UP 21/22 were the "Pacific Limited" which had an SP counterpart 21/22 on a much slower schedule than the Overland. The Pacific Limited was handled by the CM&StP east of Omaha instead of the C&NW, at least for some period after 1913.
The Dining car is listed with the San Francisco to Chicago equipment. Even if the reference is to Oakland, that still covers the whole trip. The Oakland to Chicago reference covers the Observation and Club cars. All of the sleepers except the observation were listed to San Francisco - a neat trick since the run ended at the Oakland Mole.
I’m going to assume that your comments refer to Southern Pacific’s Overland Limited consist listing.
The St. Louis Pullman and tourist sleeper in question operated westbound only via the Overland Limited and is specifically listed in the CB&Q section of the Official Guide, and includes the schedule for UP #21 and SP #1. The eastbound St. Louis Pullman and Tourist car were handled on the Pacific Limited from San Francisco.
On the Union Pacific, the Pacific Limited was numbered 19 westbound and 20 eastbound.
Union Pacific #21 operated between Denver and Ogden via Borie.
If you look closely at South Pacific’s description, you can see the general listing pattern of the car lines: (equipment type) (destination) (operating railroads).
Parsing SP’s description results in the following:
MiningmanWow. Quite the performance. Tremendous discipline and concentration. That's about as far from Boxcar Willie you'll ever get.
Here's the version I was looking for, less music-geek art-song intense and more like you'd expect to hear regular folks sing it:
\
Nicely done! Do you suppose they know the Northern Pacific "Great Big Baked Potato Song?"
So "Crossing The Grand Sierras" was written by Henry Clay Work? Interesting, but not as rousing as his classic "Marching Through Georgia!"
Wow. Quite the performance. Tremendous discipline and concentration. That's about as far from Boxcar Willie you'll ever get.
I could not do it without breaking into laughter and descending into some 3 Stooges thing. Good thing there are folks far more serious than me.
Now I want a cigar and a nice Scotch.
Jones1945 Miningman https://archive.org/details/TheOverlandLimited/page/n69 Very nice find, Vince.
Miningman https://archive.org/details/TheOverlandLimited/page/n69
Miningman Actual picture of the consist am looking at a picture from the Lucius Beebe book on page 66 https://archive.org/details/TheOverlandLimited/page/n69
Actual picture of the consist
am looking at a picture from the Lucius Beebe book on page 66
Very nice found, Vince. Glad to see my favorite challenger type 4-6-6-4 (pre-war version) once leaded this beautiful train on P.141
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Lindsay_K I am looking at a picture from the Lucius Beebe book on page 66 of the Overland Limited No 2 in 1917 and it lists the consist as: RPO baggage-buffet 2 Pullman sleepers, a diner, observation lounge. But I see an advertisement on page 152 from 1914 that lists "...barber shop, baths, stenographer, valet, ladies' maid, and excellent dining-car service." I just can't figure out where all those employees would have slept. Someone suggested perhaps the dining crew slept in the diner, but what about the rest of the crew?
I am looking at a picture from the Lucius Beebe book on page 66 of the Overland Limited No 2 in 1917 and it lists the consist as:
RPO
baggage-buffet
2 Pullman sleepers,
a diner,
observation lounge.
But I see an advertisement on page 152 from 1914 that lists "...barber shop, baths, stenographer, valet, ladies' maid, and excellent dining-car service."
I just can't figure out where all those employees would have slept. Someone suggested perhaps the dining crew slept in the diner, but what about the rest of the crew?
In the 1940s, the rest of the crew slept on the floor in the baggage car, if dormitory car was not arranged by the railroad. Pullman porter would sleep in an unoccupied roomette or bedroom, but I am not sure where they slept in the 1910s; maybe on a chair or slept on the table in the dining car as well?
I have seen some time table from the 40s which show "no checked baggage" (I forgot the exact wording) under one all-coach train schedule. Does that mean the passenger only can take small hand luggage or carry-on baggage onto the train?
2 pullman sleepers,
overservation lounge.
I just can't figure out where all those emplyees would have slept. Someone suggested perhaps the dining crew slept in the diner, but what about the rest of the crew?
Yes, the checked baggage would have been in the baggage car.
Johnny
Lindsay_K Two questions: 1. So where would the crew (specifically the diner crew) have slept? 2. What is the difference between the "conductor (railroad)" and the "pullman conductor" you have listed?
Two questions:
1. So where would the crew (specifically the diner crew) have slept?
2. What is the difference between the "conductor (railroad)" and the "pullman conductor" you have listed?
If only one Pullman car was on the train, the porter was in full charge of it; only if there were two or more Pullmans on the train was there a Pullman conductor on board,
Lindsay_K would it have been a cabin car in the overland in 1915? trying to figure where the crew slept.
would it have been a cabin car in the overland in 1915? trying to figure where the crew slept.
Balt is of course correct - if there was a baggageman he was a railroad employee. A second look at the RPO makes me pretty sure it is either one with a 60 foot apartment or one with a 45 foot apartment and 15 feet of storage mail space, for first class mail. Mail could be picked up and dropped off on the fly. I doubt the Overland carried express.
The club car had four table sections which were convertible to berths. These were not revenue sections (and not in Pullman equipment) so they may have been used as dormitory sections. They were located forward of the buffet lounge.
I can't find a record with start and end dates, but one of the 10-2-1 sleepers was handled between Chicago and Omaha by the Chicago Milwaukee and St. Paul at various times during the 1900-1920 period. CM&St.P mostly operated its own sleepers, but it did participate in some Pullman "lines". The car would not have looked any different from the other 10-2-1's.
Jones1945 BaltACD In the era of All-Pullman trains - if there were coach(s) ahead of the trains 'normal' consist they most likely were being deadheaded for future needs at the destination - it normally would not be occupied. Deadhead equipment on trains that carried 'head end' traffic in addition to regular passenger accomidations would have the deadhead equipment placed behind the locomotives ahead of the 'head end' traffic. The 'rider' coach at the rear of mail and express trains was for the Train Crew - the Conductor and Flagman to occupy. In many cases it would be a car that had the 'least saleable' accomoditions of any passenger cars in the carriers fleet. (Straight back, walkover seats without air conditioning springs to mind and might even require a coal stove for heating). PRR on some of their mail & express trains would use a Cabin Car on the rear for crew occupancy. Thanks a lot, Balt! No wonder I have seen in the video that an oddly P70 coach was attached within the headend of some All Pullman trains like the Broadway and the General, I always want to know why there were there! I thought they were used as a dormitory or other purposes.
BaltACD In the era of All-Pullman trains - if there were coach(s) ahead of the trains 'normal' consist they most likely were being deadheaded for future needs at the destination - it normally would not be occupied. Deadhead equipment on trains that carried 'head end' traffic in addition to regular passenger accomidations would have the deadhead equipment placed behind the locomotives ahead of the 'head end' traffic. The 'rider' coach at the rear of mail and express trains was for the Train Crew - the Conductor and Flagman to occupy. In many cases it would be a car that had the 'least saleable' accomoditions of any passenger cars in the carriers fleet. (Straight back, walkover seats without air conditioning springs to mind and might even require a coal stove for heating). PRR on some of their mail & express trains would use a Cabin Car on the rear for crew occupancy.
In the era of All-Pullman trains - if there were coach(s) ahead of the trains 'normal' consist they most likely were being deadheaded for future needs at the destination - it normally would not be occupied. Deadhead equipment on trains that carried 'head end' traffic in addition to regular passenger accomidations would have the deadhead equipment placed behind the locomotives ahead of the 'head end' traffic.
The 'rider' coach at the rear of mail and express trains was for the Train Crew - the Conductor and Flagman to occupy. In many cases it would be a car that had the 'least saleable' accomoditions of any passenger cars in the carriers fleet. (Straight back, walkover seats without air conditioning springs to mind and might even require a coal stove for heating). PRR on some of their mail & express trains would use a Cabin Car on the rear for crew occupancy.
Thanks a lot, Balt! No wonder I have seen in the video that an oddly P70 coach was attached within the headend of some All Pullman trains like the Broadway and the General, I always want to know why there were there! I thought they were used as a dormitory or other purposes.
Harry Stegmaier wrote two volumes of books on the B&O's passenger service from 1945 to Amtrak in 1971. First volume is about traffic on the route of the National Limited and the second volume is on the route of the Capitol Limited.
The books go into the cars that the various train's carried and the business purpose for being in the train. No matter the railroad or the train, every car in the train has a specific business purpose for being in the train.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Jones1945 BaltACD ...The mail and express trains normally had a 'rider coach' as the only passenger carrying car on the rear of the train for the crew. The trains could be as short as 3 or 4 cars and sometimes be larger than 20 cars. If shown in public timetables there was frequently a notation that the train DID NOT carry revenue passengers. I once thought those mail and express train carrying a single car or a very short passenger consist was for commuter train service. Sometimes I saw in the video that there was a single passenger car within an all Pullman train consist, usually, in the front end. I thought they had the same function as well.
BaltACD ...The mail and express trains normally had a 'rider coach' as the only passenger carrying car on the rear of the train for the crew. The trains could be as short as 3 or 4 cars and sometimes be larger than 20 cars. If shown in public timetables there was frequently a notation that the train DID NOT carry revenue passengers.
...The mail and express trains normally had a 'rider coach' as the only passenger carrying car on the rear of the train for the crew. The trains could be as short as 3 or 4 cars and sometimes be larger than 20 cars. If shown in public timetables there was frequently a notation that the train DID NOT carry revenue passengers.
I once thought those mail and express train carrying a single car or a very short passenger consist was for commuter train service. Sometimes I saw in the video that there was a single passenger car within an all Pullman train consist, usually, in the front end. I thought they had the same function as well.
Baggage was normally a 'company' function, not an express company function.
From observations, Express, was normally handled in designated mail & express trains which most Class 1 carriers operated. Such trains normally consisted of storage mail and RPO cars, as well as express cars on designated runs. The mail and express trains normally had a 'rider coach' as the only passenger carrying car on the rear of the train for the crew. The trains could be as short as 3 or 4 cars and sometimes be larger than 20 cars. If shown in public timetables there was frequently a notation that the train DID NOT carry revenue passengers.
The baggageman might also have been an employee of the express company. Actual baggage would often be handled by station staff and the head end brakeman.
RPO clerks were employees of the United States Post Office, not the railroad.
BaltACDIf that was a typical consist - over the length of the run from Chicago to San Francisco - with all the various crew changes in route - the number of employees required to operate the train would have exceeded the number of paying passengers.
True enough - but the crew at any given time would be:
Engineer
Fireman
Conductor (railroad)
head brakeman
rear brakeman
RPO Clerk (2)
Baggageman
Club attendant
Barber
Pullman Conductor
Pullman porter (3)
Chef (2)
Dishwasher
Maitre D
Waiters (5)
Train crew would change regularly at division points (4 crews on C&NW, 7 on UP, 7 on SP not counting the ferry crossings at Port Costa and Oakland) Baggageman would change at Omaha and Ogden, Diner, Pullman and Club crews would work through. Total manpower over 2255 miles 107 not counting RPO clerks.
Against that an average of 35 to 45 first class fares (plus extra fares,) and Pullman space charges. If all space was used the passenger count would be 65, plus a few more if some berths were shared. Extra cars would be assigned if necessary, up to the locomotive's capacity. It was still possible to make money at those rates. Even a bit of a loss was tolerated for top-tier trains as their patrons were likely to send other business to the participating railroads.
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