Big Boy name

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, February 25, 2019 12:42 PM

Flintlock76
Well, one of the reason's that U-Boot's there is as a reminder of a magnificent feat of arms by the US Navy in WW2, the first Navy capture of an enemy vessel since the War of 1812, and one that resulted in the award of the Medal of Honor to the officer commanding the boarding party.

As a matter of fact, Captain (later Rear Admiral) Daniel Gallery, the commander of the hunter-killer group that captured the sub was the first US Navy commander since the War of 1812 to give the command "AWAY ALL BOARDERS!"  

Quite a guy, Captain Gallery!  Here's his story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_V._Gallery  

Now a war souvenir like that is just too good to throw away!

Starting about the 19 minute mark is the story of the capture of U-505 - 2 days before D-Day.  Over 800 U-boats were sunk during WW II.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:05 PM

"Metropolis!"  Good point, they put just about everything else in it.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:01 PM

Miningman

Perhaps without the war we would have gone this way.

 

Very Metropolitan!  I've always found it curious that being a German film and all, they didn't model miniature Zeppelins for the 1929 film:

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, February 21, 2019 5:29 AM

Overmod

They had no such idea... and shouldn't have.

This period was still perceived as the Streamliner Age, merely interrupted by a few years of unpleasantness.  What had worked so well up to late 1941 would certainly work even better as soon as the 'inevitable depression' had ended and the lost wartime production absorbed by industry.  Few of the things that actually ended passenger service were manifest at that time: most of the road-improvement projects were primarily grade-separation or high-traffic-density propositions, for instance.  The only real superhighway in the East was the Pennsylvania Turnpike, which was essentially built to German Autobahn standards and which was a horror thrill ride then as now to anyone without a good capable car -- in short supply for years after the War ended.  The great age of turnpikes, and later the Interstate system, wouldn't get underway for at least several years, and cars built to optimize their capabilities even further away. 

Meanwhile, most of the advantages of four-engine military aircraft were only just starting to trickle down to airlines, where a Skymaster was still first-line equipment, little better than a fat DC-3.  Still an era of relatively low-level flight severely impacted by weather conditions.  Who'd expect that would become highly preferred to riding Pullmans ... or competition for cheap coach travel with 'streamliner' amenities?

Your analyze is absolutely right, the LD Passenger train was doing so well, operated in a section after section until the end of the War World II, until the general public of America was free from war restrictions, allowed to drive their car and use the gas again. And commercial Jet like the de Havilland Comet first appeared in the mid-1949. After the Korean War, we had the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956 which benefited a lot a family and corporation in the States but it was the the last nail in the coffin of America's long-distance passenger service. 

But I do believe that some railroader who was leading some largest RR in the States had the foresight on the future of America's industry. So why I made such an obvious mistake when answering Becky's question? Maybe for a meaningful and informative response like yours? Stick out tongue

Overmod

Steamship people were making similar mistakes, later than railroads did.  I have mentioned the stillborn attempt to extend the Trail-Blazer like service model to transatlantic travel that Yourkevitch was developing as late as 1954... might it have been interesting to live in a slightly later world of nostalgia, in which we had the Hyperboloid instead of the old GCT; mass steamship travel with the usual cruise-line kind of amenities; Chessie-style consists on NYC Dieseliner service with Mr Young's eye toward improvement of service.  And real high-speed trains that matter, instead of lightweight beer-can accommodation stuff...

Interesting, Overmod. A REAL High-Speed Rail connecting the most important cities of the Northeast, travel package allow HSR passenger to take the new massive high-speed oceanliner at a much lower cost which had acceptable amenities like what Yourkevitch designed from 1954 to 1957; small profits, quick turnover approach. Although I am not sure Yourkevitch's idea is practical for transatlantic ocean liner service since public order on such a big ship with 6000 passengers plus maybe 1200 crews would be a big headache. 

By the way, could I call The UP "Big Boy" "She" when I talking about he/she/it? If UP Big Boy is a boyo then what is the PRR S1? The Big Mother of American railroad? !

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:45 PM

Wow!  Great artwork Vince!  Lady Firestom approves!

And she LOVES the Zeppelin!  And no damn swastikas on it either, which makes it perfect.

By the way, Dr. Hugo Eckener, the head of the Zeppelin Company, didn't want swastikas on his ships either, but since the company operated under a government subsidy, and "you-know-who" was in charge, he didn't have any choice.

You know the old saying, "You take the kings money, you dance to the king's tune."

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:10 PM

Perhaps without the war we would have gone this way.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, February 20, 2019 9:57 AM

Jones1945

Penny Trains
Why should they have thought things would go so far south so fast? Like the old song says, they knew the soldiers were going to want to travel after they got home from "Par-ee".

Maybe they knew when the soldiers came home, they would travel by air or driving their own cars... Blindfold

They had no such idea... and shouldn't have.

This period was still perceived as the Streamliner Age, merely interrupted by a few years of unpleasantness.  What had worked so well up to late 1941 would certainly work even better as soon as the 'inevitable depression' had ended and the lost wartime production absorbed by industry.  Few of the things that actually ended passenger service were manifest at that time: most of the road-improvement projects were primarily grade-separation or high-traffic-density propositions, for instance.  The only real superhighway in the East was the Pennsylvania Turnpike, which was essentially built to German Autobahn standards and which was a horror thrill ride then as now to anyone without a good capable car -- in short supply for years after the War ended.  The great age of turnpikes, and later the Interstate system, wouldn't get underway for at least several years, and cars built to optimize their capabilities even further away. 

Meanwhile, most of the advantages of four-engine military aircraft were only just starting to trickle down to airlines, where a Skymaster was still first-line equipment, little better than a fat DC-3.  Still an era of relatively low-level flight severely impacted by weather conditions.  Who'd expect that would become highly preferred to riding Pullmans ... or competition for cheap coach travel with 'streamliner' amenities?

Steamship people were making similar mistakes, later than railroads did.  I have mentioned the stillborn attempt to extend the Trail-Blazer like service model to transatlantic travel that Yourkevitch was developing as late as 1954... might it have been interesting to live in a slightly later world of nostalgia, in which we had the Hyperboloid instead of the old GCT; mass steamship travel with the usual cruise-line kind of amenities; Chessie-style consists on NYC Dieseliner service with Mr Young's eye toward improvement of service.  And real high-speed trains that matter, instead of lightweight beer-can accommodation stuff...

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, February 20, 2019 4:28 AM

Flintlock76

Mr. Jones, Rogers E. M. Whittaker said essentially the same thing in the closing chapter of "Decade Of The Trains, The 1940's."  In a nutshell, he said the railroads won the war, but were about to lose the peace, although it wasn't obvious at first.

I believe Mr. Rogers E. M. Whittaker witnessed a lot of things happened in the railroad industry during WWII; he was in the front line working with different ranks of hardworking railroaders. I can understand he had a very deep feeling about how America's railroad contributed to fight and won the war. Unfortunately, the railroad industry, especially the passenger service part, was sacrificed for the national interests of America after WWII.  Coffee

Penny Trains

Why should they have thought things would go so far south so fast?  Like the old song says, they knew the soldiers were going to want to travel after they got home from "Par-ee".

Maybe they knew when the soldiers came home, they would travel by air or driving their own cars... Blindfold

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Posted by Penny Trains on Tuesday, February 19, 2019 7:12 PM

Why should they have thought things would go so far south so fast?  Like the old song says, they knew the soldiers were going to want to travel after they got home from "Par-ee".

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Tuesday, February 19, 2019 6:50 PM

Mr. Jones, Rogers E. M. Whittaker said essentially the same thing in the closing chapter of "Decade Of The Trains, The 1940's."  In a nutshell, he said the railroads won the war, but were about to lose the peace, although it wasn't obvious at first.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, February 19, 2019 4:57 AM

It was such an ironic situation that the bloody War War II actually delayed the demise of LD passenger train service of America for at least 5 years... Imagine what it would have been like if the highway network was built 10 years earlier... but the speed of aircraft development would have probably been a bit slower.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 18, 2019 11:58 PM

I give absolutely less than zero credence to any Nazi. 

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Monday, February 18, 2019 11:44 PM

Miningman

Submariners were selected for their devotion to Nazism, not worthy of an ounce of military, naval or seamanship praise.

From what I've read, the German submariners conducted themselves in much the same way the Allied submariners did, often with assisting with lifeboats after sinking a cargo or passenger ship. This practice ended when a U-boat was attacked during such an operation. When Adm. Dönitz was brought up on war crime charges related to this decision, he was acquitted when his defense pointed out the Allies did the same thing.

The IJN was altogether a diferent operation, where standard practice was to execute allied personnel after interrogation when said personnel were pulled out of the water by the IJN.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 18, 2019 7:02 PM

Balt-- The ad appeared in March 1943 Life Magazine so still a bit in the iffy dark days.

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_X1EEAAAAMBAJ/page/n63

Flintlock 76/ Wayne-- A very reluctant ok from me... but.. I like my idea better. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, February 18, 2019 5:20 PM

Well, one of the reason's that U-Boot's there is as a reminder of a magnificent feat of arms by the US Navy in WW2, the first Navy capture of an enemy vessel since the War of 1812, and one that resulted in the award of the Medal of Honor to the officer commanding the boarding party.

As a matter of fact, Captain (later Rear Admiral) Daniel Gallery, the commander of the hunter-killer group that captured the sub was the first US Navy commander since the War of 1812 to give the command "AWAY ALL BOARDERS!"  

Quite a guy, Captain Gallery!  Here's his story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_V._Gallery  

Now a war souvenir like that is just too good to throw away!

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, February 18, 2019 4:41 PM

Miningman
Mike sent me this as a follow up. From Alco! 

Melt the sub down and use the steel in building a new C&NW Zeppelin with an explanation of its role in winning WWII. Cost 30 million or so, make the Museum a Mecca for railfans. Now that's something to cheer about!

Here is the link to the ad if the writing is too small and fuzzy using Imgur 

 

Any idea of which year of the war the ad hailed from?  42 & 43 were relatively grim years for 'good' news, however as 43 progressed into 44 and D-Day the PR of the war changed in tone.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 18, 2019 3:23 PM

Mike sent me this as a follow up. From Alco! 

Melt the sub down and use the steel in building a new C&NW Zeppelin with an explanation of its role in winning WWII. Cost 30 million or so, make the Museum a Mecca for railfans. Now that's something to cheer about!

Here is the link to the ad if the writing is too small and fuzzy using Imgur 

 

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, February 18, 2019 9:29 AM

Could not agree more Wayne. Why honour and display a Nazi killing machine responsible for tens of thousands of horrid deaths at sea and the cutting edge of a fanatical group of lunatics directly responsible for tens of millions of deaths. Submariners were selected for their devotion to Nazism, not worthy of an ounce of military, naval or seamanship praise. Trophy of war? Might as well honour the devil and hell itself. 

On the other hand the C&NW Zeppelins played no small part in ending the war and worthy of recognition. 

Major major fail. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Monday, February 18, 2019 8:53 AM

As far as post-war steam preservation's concerned I think it was strictly a matter of which railroad, who was in charge, and what the attitude was.

The B&O had a collection of classic steam, the PRR had one at Northumberland PA but for whatever reason neglected to include the S1 and a T1, why we'll never know.  The NYC just massacred their steam fleet and the only NYC steamers that survive did so by accident. No Erie steam survives.  That Southern Ps-4 in the Smithsonian survived because the Southern's then VP of Law Graham Claytor argued to save it as strongly as if he was a defense attorney in a murder trial and that Ps-4 was his client.  But then, some 'roads were very generous in donating steamers to towns and cities along the routes as park ornaments.  

Hit-or-miss, no rhyme or reason.  What can you do?

And it's too bad the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago could make space for a U-Boot, but not for a "Zeppelin."

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, February 18, 2019 2:40 AM

Overmod

Frankly it would be interesting to see if you could shoehorn this into PRR clearances for a WPB choice (using the blueprints for the first rebuild, which changed the H from merely awesome to near-perfect 'for purpose') with that Jones1945 patent semilune-windowed cab (and perhaps a rightsized Belpaire box and chamber, perhaps of Q2 derivation, if you can finagle it).  Go ahead and spec as lightweight a set of rods etc. as you can since you're building it new.

 
You are definitely correct that I do feel like I patented the PRR style cab, from the forum to the train sim community... I feel like I am the last active Pennsy fan in other platforms except here and Facebook CoffeeShy

When people discussing why there was no PRR 4-8-4s, we always heard about N&W Class J but not other options due to the business relationship of N&W and PRR as well as the excellent performance of N&W Class J during the test. Now we found a very smart and fit candidate but I am afraid that even the upgraded version of CN&W H-1 was not considered powerful enough in PRR's mind.
 
But at least the 76" driver would be more attractive than 69" for the motive power department of PRR. The TE and FA of H-1 was still slightly inferior to the Q1, a design from 1939. Although in hindsight, an H-1 or even a PRR M1b was powerful enough for postwar traffic load...But I believe either Q1 and CN&W H-1 Class were the best candidate to power the express freight service like NYC's Pacemaker (65mph)
 

Overmod

And yes, it's a pity the 1946 rebuilding specs wouldn't have been available for that purpose, as they essentially made this package what some gamers call god-level.  Read about the H1s in the contemporary trade press if you want to see something impressive (and unaccountably underrated).  It was as much a crime not to have preserved one of those as it was to lose the Niagaras.  And yes, that's a strong statement.

The only spec I can find is from here:

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobase.php?country=USA&wheel=4-8-4&railroad=cnw#252

As I suggested before, the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago have plenty of space and room to preserve all these outstanding steam engines of America, but it seems that some people with power in their hands wanted to get rid of the steam-powered engine in the States as many as possible since the end of World War II Coffee

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Sunday, February 17, 2019 10:20 PM

Overmod

See the ad on p.57 of Tom Murray's book "Chicago and North Western Railway" (accessible via Google Books in the States if you don't own a copy) and then pull up the Complete Collection to read Wallace Abbey's article in October 1970 Trains (" ... Zeppelins they surely were not").  I dimly remember an article titled "An H of an engine" but nobody aside from TrainOrders even mentions it on the Web.

I'm very sure the "H of an engine" was from one of the first paragraph's in Abbey's article. Something to the effect of "imagining a C&NW Pacific and doubling that" with the result being one H of an engine.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Sunday, February 17, 2019 6:52 PM

Flintlock76
Clambake? Ick!

I am with you. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, February 17, 2019 4:19 PM

OK, "Fortress Firelock" it will remain!  I like the alliteration of it myself, to tell the truth!

Clambake?  Ick!   And that's all I'm going to say on THAT subject!

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, February 17, 2019 2:30 PM

Flintlock76
Continuing the research I hit every steam book I have here in the archives of the "Fortress Flintlock" and can't find anything to nail down where that "Zeppelin" name came from.

See the ad on p.57 of Tom Murray's book "Chicago and North Western Railway" (accessible via Google Books in the States if you don't own a copy) and then pull up the Complete Collection to read Wallace Abbey's article in October 1970 Trains (" ... Zeppelins they surely were not").  I dimly remember an article titled "An H of an engine" but nobody aside from TrainOrders even mentions it on the Web.

And just for the record, it's still the Fortress Firelock, unless Her Honor now goes by "Lady Flintstorm" which loses something ineluctable in its semantics.  Just because Clambake fudged your login credentials is no reason to tamper with the admirable.

Frankly it would be interesting to see if you could shoehorn this into PRR clearances for a WPB choice (using the blueprints for the first rebuild, which changed the H from merely awesome to near-perfect 'for purpose') with that Jones1945 patent semilune-windowed cab (and perhaps a rightsized Belpaire box and chamber, perhaps of Q2 derivation, if you can finagle it).  Go ahead and spec as lightweight a set of rods etc. as you can since you're building it new.

Control dimension is 100" max boiler diameter (plus cleading/lagging) over 76" drivers ... this rings a bell for you Double-Belpaire fans, nicht wahr?) for a nominal loading-gage height of 16' even ... which I think is still a tad high to get all the way into Chicago without a fuss.  But look how close it would come to a practical fulfillment of the original Q1 design parameters!

And yes, it's a pity the 1946 rebuilding specs wouldn't have been available for that purpose, as they essentially made this package what some gamers call god-level.  Read about the H1s in the contemporary trade press if you want to see something impressive (and unaccountably underrated).  It was as much a crime not to have preserved one of those as it was to lose the Niagaras.  And yes, that's a strong statement.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:37 PM

Thanks Mr. Jones!

Continuing the research I hit every steam book I have here in the archives of the "Fortress Flintlock" and can't find anything to nail down where that "Zeppelin" name came from.

I DID find out those C&NW Northerns were the biggest 4-8-4's built until the N&W's Class J's came along.  Formidable!

So Overmod could be right on this one and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he is.  Good for him!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, February 17, 2019 10:44 AM

Nice find, Wayne. 

The C&NW H Class caught my attention in the "headlight brightness" post. She had a rather epic spec: TE was 71,800 lbf, only 100 lbf less than "my" PRR's Lamborghini S1 but she had a much lighter weight and a much better FA, not oversized; rebuilt with a list of cutting-edge stuff in 1940. Sound like a very underrated 4-8-4s. 

Tags: C&NW H Class

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:52 PM

You could very well be right.

However, I did some looking and found these two very interesting C&NW brochures concerning the H Class.

https://www.railarchive.net/cnwbook/class_h_leaflet1.htm  

https://www.railarchive.net/cnwbook/class_h_leaflet2.htm  

Dammit, they call them "Zeppelins" but don't say why!   Sheesh!

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, February 16, 2019 1:26 PM

I believe you will find it's more a reference to the H class being nearly the size of a Zeppelin.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:18 AM

Anyone can feel free to correct me on this, but I believe it was an advertising ploy on the C&NW's part.

Considering the outstanding achievements and reliability of the "Graf Zeppelin" the C&NW called their new steam locomotives "Zeppelins Of The Rails" by way of a favorable comparison with the great German airship.  

Needless to say, this was long  before the "Hindenburg" disaster.  

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