A picture truly worth a thousand words

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, July 12, 2019 5:41 PM

Vince, if American steam locomotives wound up being scrapped in Canada I can only think of two reasons for the same.

1)  The Canadian scrappers offered the best price.

2)  Some might just have been up there anyway, so why bring them "home" just to kill 'em?

Just a couple of thoughts on a dirty business.

Wayne

PS:  I mentioned Ron Zeil's "Twilight Of Steam Locomotives" earlier, and in the scrapyard chapter Ron mentioned talking with the cutting torch men, and finding out they weren't too crazy about killing those magnificent machines either, but what can you do?  A job's a job. 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, July 12, 2019 3:59 PM

A head scratcher... why would American steam locomotives be scrapped in Canada? Must be something economic about it but enough so to overcome transportation and border holdups... probably brokerage and paperwork?

No capiche. 

It is possible the C&O locomotives came from St. Thomas or Sarnia refineries so already based in Canada but articulated locomotives? 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, July 12, 2019 9:16 AM

Thanks for the link to that forlorn Hudson NDG!

And you know, no-one's saying that ALL the steam locomotives should have been preserved, (As much as we'd secretly wish it!), that would have been totally unrealistic and impractical.

It's the wholesale slaughter, especially of certain historic and landmark types, that has us so PO'd.  

OK, business is business, and assuming most of us here are capitalists we more than understand that, but still, what a loss.

Not quite on the order of building condos or strip malls on a Civil War battlefield, but close.

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Friday, July 12, 2019 3:43 AM

 

 

FWIW.
 
I have not seen the images at Hamilton in Print form since the Sixties.
 
The article started off by saying " There is a Graveyard at the end of xxx Street in Hamilton " and went on.
 
There might be a Site which has The Star Weekly on line?
 
Not all steam locomotives can or should be preserved.
 
Here is one last which I found whilst looking for something else.
 
The boiler looks as if it could still be warm, the next time it feels warmth will be under the auspices of Acetylene.
 
White Lined.
 
 
No other details.
 
Thank You.

 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, July 12, 2019 2:24 AM

doctorwayne-- could be an urban legend that they just rolled the TH&B Berkshires and Hudsons into the open furnaces... same story with the Algoma Central steam at Algoma Steel. Probably is. The TH&B scrapped their steam fast. Tenders removed moments after their last run ( pics of that) and then off quickly to the steel mills with the locomotive. This was the NYC influence on the TH&B. 

Local railfans raved and still do about the TH&B Geeps, but not me ever.   Paint scheme never held up well and besides who cares. Passenger declined to nothing, the magic was gone and that was that. 

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:04 PM

Well I would like to see those C&O steam locomotives in Hamilton as per the Star Weekly. 

A very popular and eagerly awaited addition to many newspapers. Ours was the Hamilton Spectator. September to May every year they had a full length half page picture of a NHL hockey player dressed in their home colours. Along with a small bio and stats. Could not wait to see who was featured this week. If it was a Chicago Black Hawk it went on my wall. Bobby Hull, Stan Mikita, Glen Hall, Billy Hay, Pierre Pilot, Doug Mohns, Chico Maki..  so good. No link available! 

By the way, former media mogul Conrad Black, the founder of the National Post, revived it from the NP inaugural issue and a couple of years after that then the realities of newspaper finances hit hard. 

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, July 11, 2019 8:01 PM

I'm with you Overmod, I really don't want to see steam locomotives lined up for the slaughter.  if I want that I'll pull out my copy of Ron Zeil's "The Twilight of Steam Locomotives," and I don't even do that all too often.

I'd find it as disturbing as a film I saw several years ago of a pilot whale massacre in some Scandinavian country.  Supposed to be a local festival.  Really.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, July 11, 2019 7:12 PM

I don't want links.  Not of that.  Most of what NDG recounts, yes, but not that.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, July 11, 2019 6:05 PM

NDG-- No links! Are there supposed to be links? Please repost if so.

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Thursday, July 11, 2019 5:31 PM

 

Forums.
 
One reason of these Forums is to inforum others and pass on information, history and SKILLS from our lifetimes, when steam was disappearing along with so much else.
 
The Big Change came in 1960, when steam was gone for good, along with a great deal of passenger service.
 
The Seaway just opened in '59, and more change with the elimination of the smaller canals.
 
This could go on and on.
 
We haunted CNR Turcot Yards in Montreal where CN cut up over 100 steam locomotives in 1960-1961, including CN 4193-4194, Ex B&A.
 
We climbed all over CN 4190/4100, it earmarked for preservation, and wondered at the Canisters containing Marker Lamps front and rear.
 
It there, too. but SAFE.
 
Found out about the lamps, eventually.
 
 
To CP Angus Shops, Montreal.
 
Rows and rows of steam. Even MORE rows of just TENDERS, going for OCS Water Car Service.
 
CP 9003 and 9005 ( ' Gas Electrics ' ) in getting cut up as we watched, ex Maritime Service.
 
A later visit to CN London saw many of the CNR CLC locomotives meeting their end. Some of the Steeple Cabs were there from Oshawa, Ont.
 
Back in the day was a weekly glossy magazine named 'The Star Weekly ' which had a detailed photo expose of steam locomotives being cut up in Hamilton.
 
A row of 8-coupled all lettered Chesapeake and Ohio.
 
A view from an overhead crane of a BIG PILE of JUST the boiler segment tube sheet to tube sheet of locomotive boilers, domes still atop.
 
Another BIG pile of cylinder castings.
 
BIG Travelling Crane.
 
A view somewhere of an articulated, Main rods off, crossing Southern Ontario bound for Hamilton.
 
Another Saturday expose in the Montreal Star of a CN steam crane ripping the cab off a Pacific, other cabs, their wood lining burning, in the background. A pile of Pyle National headlights, a pile of Driving Box Journals.
 
A steam locomotive shorn of it's cab is LOST, DOOMED! a crew moving in with torches while we watched.
 
Well covered at the time, in the Media. 
 
Won't mention piles of burning streetcars and 12-whl. heavyweights.  
 
One Sunday we rode the GMD Yard Goat and the list said to lift and space Five steam locomotives for scrapping, Monday Morning.
 
Church Bells were ringing across the Canal, in St. Henri.
 
We coupled on to a string of about Thirty, and pulled the pin behind Five, 
 
Noise, smoke, sand and wheel slip. No movement account the grass below.
 
Cut off Two, and moved on, up thru the switches to the scrapping area and spaced as requested.
 
Had to back down the long way around and bring up the other Two and set them over on top of the Three.
 
Long slow last trip, the headlight nodding and weaving out the back door of the Switcher. On The Last Trip.
 
We knew the end was no longer near, but HERE! 
 
 
Thank You.  
 
 

 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Thursday, July 11, 2019 4:17 PM

Thanks to all for the information included in this thread.  I grew up in Hamilton, and do remember much of what was there at one time.

The TH&B was literally right across the street from our front porch, on an elevated r-o-w, and I watched the steamers (and their replacements) from there.

The TH&B Berks and Hudsons certainly wouldn't have gone into the STELCO blast furnaces, but were likely cut-up, at STELCO, down near the Bay, then went into the open hearth furnaces.  A lot of American steam met its end there, too, including articulated locos and quite a few Berkshires - their tenders, cut-down and modifed, served long lives as slab carriers...there are photos to be found HERE.

I later worked at STELCO so am quite familair with operations there. 

The tender from one of the TH&B Hudsons was converted into a steam generator car, and eventually ended-up at Steam Town.

The fruit industry is still flourishing in the Niagara peninsula, but there's little left from Burlington, through Hamilton, and all the way out past Stoney Creek.  Some survives in the Winona area, and through Grimsby (my current home) and all the way down to Niagara-On-The-Lake, although it's under threat in various places from urban development.

I'm modelling the late '30s, in HO scale, and many of my industries are named for real ones which exist (or existed) in this area, so the links were a very-much-appreciated reminder of what was once here.

Wayne

 

 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, July 05, 2019 7:06 PM

NDG-- Thanks for the Burlington Bay bridges information. Making me homesick, good memories all along there. 

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, July 05, 2019 12:41 PM

Flintlock/Wayne-- The Surveying teacher at our Mine School bought one of four $400,000 condos right on the lake. Very nice, fancy schmancy and all but immediately to their right is the long ago and well established Waterbase with scores of Twin Otters and other models coming and going from the crack of dawn until twilight and they are really noisy things. Ear splitting, take off and landing. Of course now he and his wife are complaining, and are so stressed that he bought land in far away New Brunswick in the middle of no where and building a house there. Will be leaving us upon completion. The water and sewer lines froze solid on all four of them this winter during that extended 2 month long -40 period this winter didn't help either. Some kind of contractor screw up, what a mess. 

Nice deck, if you can handle it! So what did they expect really? Peace and quiet with a water base airport, the busiest in all of Saskatchewan a couple of hundred feet away? He looks at my modest house backing onto solid forest all the way to Prince Albert with great envy. 

I would view the surge as daily entertainment but to say damage is a stretch. Speeding Lake Freighters, geez. Ok, pull over pal! 

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, July 05, 2019 10:29 AM

Flintlock76
Interesting video of that surge through the canal. 

As a perhaps interesting point for the alert reader, these surges can become virtually self-sustaining.  See the early development of the math that became 'solitons', which was originated when a scientist first observed the phenomenon in a canal and followed it.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, July 05, 2019 8:54 AM

Interesting video of that surge through the canal.  I read the notes, and apparantly the ships were "speeding," that is, going three to five knots over the eight knot maximum.  The US and Canadian Coast Guards are enforcing the speed limits now so the problem's been solved.  

I'm glad I read the notes.  I was going to make a "Don't buy a house next to an airport because it's cheap and then complain about the noise!" type comment.  Kept me from making a fool of myself.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, July 04, 2019 11:07 PM

Nice grass.. what damage?? It's America's Day, back to the big show in DC. Fireworks coming!!

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Thursday, July 04, 2019 10:58 PM

 

OT.

Whilst Talking Canals.........

 
Surge Caused by Ship Displacement.
 
 
Thank You.
 
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, July 04, 2019 7:17 PM

Thanks Miningman!  At least one escaped the scrapper.

Here's the HMCS Sackville's story, for those interested.  It's a good story too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Sackville_(K181)  

And look at the record of convoys escorted, and this was one  ship of hundreds like her!

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, July 04, 2019 6:55 PM

Firelock-- The HMCS Sackville was saved.. the only one.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, July 04, 2019 6:43 PM

It's a shame about those corvettes, a sad end to a lot of proud fighting ships.

Were any  of them saved at all?

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Thursday, July 04, 2019 4:46 PM

 

Burlington Bay Bridges.

As mentioned, we went to Hamilton to view the Steam Pumping Engine at the Water Works at that location.

 
On the return to Toranna we traveled the Water Level Route rather than the Skyway and crossed the Canal, the rails gone by then on the lift bridge.
 
Decades ago read a book on Hamilton Harbour which indicated that there were once TWO Bascule Bridges at the harbour entrance and that one had been destroyed by a ship, ' W.E. Fitzgerald ' in April 1952. 
 
 
Temporary bridge being constructed.
 
 
 
Here is a view, showing a Canaller transiting the Canal inbound to Hamilton Harbour thru the later-demolished Bascule bridge.
 
CNR Swing Bridge beyond, replaced by Lift Bridge.
 
 
From this Site, which contains much valuable info re Hamilton Beach, Interurbans and Bridges.
 
 
Thank You.
 
There are views on the Internet of Navy Corvettes in Hamilton for scrapping after the War. 
 
 
The S.S. Noronic of the Fire in Toronto was taken to Hamilton for scrapping In Company with a Canaller.
 

https://images.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/yourtoronto/once-upon-a-city-archives/2015/09/17/once-upon-a-city-the-day-the-ss-noronic-turned-torontos-waterfront-into-a-deadly-inferno/h1x319z3.jpg

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Posted by zindara on Tuesday, July 02, 2019 8:32 PM
Thank you! I'm glad to find this post. I agree with your opinion, I'm sure your ideas will be successful in the future! happy wheels
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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 10:30 AM

We did on lot on the Sault bridge in the Quiz a while back. Pretty extensive with lots of pictures. 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, January 02, 2019 3:00 AM

Thank you Miningman and NDG for all these informative links and images! The infrastructure at the Sault Ste. Marie canal is definitely an interesting example. : )

Jones Family Railroad Hobby YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu9gt9Q9RF-Hwq7xWciVcWg/

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Posted by MidlandMike on Tuesday, January 01, 2019 9:56 PM

Apparently they were able to repair the bridge, as a double bascule bridge still sits there.  Our local TV station has a cam at the locks, and that bridge seems to always be down.  Those two locks are not used much.  The swing bridge in one of the old photos has been replaced by a lift bridge, which crosses the channel to the other two busy locks.

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Tuesday, January 01, 2019 5:48 PM

 

FYI.
 
The Sault at War.
 
Another Double Bascule Bridge That Met in the Middle.
 
 
 
 
Tender Headlight just visible. Click to Enlarge.
 
 
 
 
Algoma Steel Works just above canal.
 
 

Thank You. 

PS.

Note SHADOW of large Freighter blurred out in South Canal.

 

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, January 01, 2019 4:55 PM

Next time I visit southern Ontario I will be sure to pay a visit to the Hamilton Steam Museum.  Might even manage to drag some relatives along too, make a day of it.

Seems like many (most?) streetcar systems handled some freight, except of course for Toronto with its unique gauge.  

In my area the Edmonton Radial Railway once had quite the collection of non-passenger equipment, unfortunately none of it survived into preservation.  They even had a rail grinder!

http://www.edmonton-radial-railway.ab.ca/streetcarhistory/workcars/

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, December 31, 2018 10:45 AM

Freight operations on the Hamilton Radial Rwy. suburban, now Hamilton Street Railway (HSR) ended 1951. Some equpiment was stored at the bottom of the Beach strip on the Hamilton side and remained there for many years. Sometime in the early 60's it was all gone, vanished. 

 

 

 HRER #123 at the E. D. Smith plant west of Winona, March 1911. Note the unusual doors at the end of each car. (Photo courtesy of Library and Archives Canada, used with permission)

A clip of one of the fruit cars (HRER #393-398) has been found online, inside a short 1920 film on fruit picking in the Niagara Peninsula called 'Where Nature Smiles.' It can't be linked to directly, but here's how to find it:

Visit the National Film Board of Canada Images Search page

  • on the NFB page, click 'More Options' below the search bar

  • in the field 'Shot ID', type 27708.

  • The full documentary is 9 minutes, 15 seconds. The car is being towed by HTC #675, and appears at about 12:05:31:00 (for some reason this clip starts at 12:00:00:00

  • This is near where the Beach Sub connected back to the mainline. Also although at the other end those orchards were identical to the ones in Burlington, except they were apples of many many varieties. The basket factory clip is in Burlington. Operations were at a frenzy in the fall. Lots of steam, lots of reefers. All a memory now.

Paradise Lost 

https://www.erudit.org/en/journals/uhr/2001-v30-n1-uhr0603/1015941ar.pdf

 

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