UP Alco FA's sealed the fate of 65 CPR Steam Locos stored for strategic reserve

[cx500]

SD70Dude

5361 and 2839 are listed as going to the Ontario Northland Railway.  Both engines are still around today, though not in Canada. 

I wonder why the ONR acquired them?

 

I understood they were acquired by the province with the concept of a rail segment at the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto.  That of course never happened.  It is quite possible that the provincially owned ONR was used as the titular owner for convenience sake.

[Enzoamps]

It is easy to see old coaling towers and think the infrastructure was still there.  But even assuming they were functionl, the railroad would still have to go and fill them ahead of any steam activity.  And such coaling facilities were spaced along the routes, and any that had been removed would have to be replaced.

You can fuel up a diesel and run it from Toronto to Vancouver all on its own.  To do the same trip with steam, you'd need multiple locomotives, they don't have the range.

[SD70Dude]

5361 and 2839 are listed as going to the Ontario Northland Railway.  Both engines are still around today, though not in Canada. 

I wonder why the ONR acquired them?

[Miningman]

Great information... thanks NDG. CRHA maintained a high standard for a long time with their publication.

80 steam locos left at the end of 1963.. that's quite a herd. Well we know the 2 Northerns never got cut up and some of those 80 were saved. 

Also Canadain Pacific Electric Lines locos, Grand River Rwy and Lake Erie and Northern included in dispositions for 1963. Great info. 

[NDG]

 

For MM.

 

CPR Remaining Steam end of 1963.

 

38 Scrapped, 80 remaining.

 

https://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no152_1964.pdf

 

Cartoon D. Wright re UP Alco-GE Power. 

 

Thank You.

[SSW9389]

Canadian Pacific leased 15 Union Pacific Alco FAs in 1964. This lease included seven FA-1s (1601, 1616, 1624, 1627-1628, 1637, and 1641) and eight FB-1s (1608B,C, 1614B, 1616C, 1636B,C and 1642B. Data from Diesel Era January-February 2005. Ed in Kentucky

[SD70Dude]

Great to have you back Vince.

[NDG]

Your are welcome!

The KCC site is full of all sorts of information for all.

Glad 2 C U!!

 

Thank You.

[Miningman]

Thank you NDG.

Been pouring over that Kennecott Copper site since you put it up. Great addition to my 1st yr class. 

103 stored serviceable. All that beautiful steam. Oh my. 

[NDG]

 

Mr. M M.

Nice to see U back!

 

Just posted a link to Kennecott Copper Co, which has many interesting views.

 

I have a JPeg list of CPR Steam held Serviceable in Montreal on July  15, 1960 which shows 103 Steam Locomotives AND their Numbers.

      09  " In Service "

      14 Terminal.   Tied Up.

      80  Main Line. Tied Up.

 

Thank You.

[Miningman]

Thank you NDG! Have never seen this list before. Perhaps I have but so long ago it has been forgotten. 

Finally finally finally got fixed with the log in. Seems the screen I was directed was not functional and has now been replaced. 

Whatever.. now if I could do something about this -30 prolonged spell with no end in sight. No time off break until Easter. 

I'm happy enough being able to post again. 

[NDG]

 

 

For M M.

 

List CPR Steam Locomotives Extant 1963.

 

https://www.exporail.org/can_rail/Canadian%20Rail_no146_1963.pdf

 

Thank You.

[BaltACD]

Miningman

Well thanks a lot for the cold water on the warm and fuzzy feelings. Yeesh.

ok how about this... too bad Soviet Union, supply and demand, they pay... over millions of bushels it's not so bad. 

The Rooskis pay, railfans play. 

Sorry for the cold hard economic water.  After all railroads are economic beings - maximium revenue tonnage for minimum costs.  Had then not been excess diesel power available, the strategic cavelry would have been fired up; but there was diesel power available.  Its terrible how reality interferes with our desires.

[Miningman]

Well thanks a lot for the cold water on the warm and fuzzy feelings. Yeesh.

ok how about this... too bad Soviet Union, supply and demand, they pay... over millions of bushels it's not so bad. 

The Rooskis pay, railfans play. 

 

[BaltACD]

Miningman

Well yeah, you would think the CPR kept this strategic reserve put away in a condition that makes a comeback very easy and smooth. They were meticulous with steam and only the newest and latest shopped out and overhauled would make the reserve. Stored away properly. Memory being what it is I can somewhat attest that the steam infrastructure was very much intact for that very purpose, at least in Southern Ontario. 

I think the new CPR management saw the whole strategic reserve as a costly error and they were too progressive to embrace what the previous management did, just because. 

Makes you wonder what CNR's response would be. Ridicule, snickering and put downs or flabbergasted at the huge positive wave that would have ensued. 

However as NDG pointed out the GP30's were soon on their way but surprisingly they only took 2. So that was no calvary. 

I suspect, the 'stragegic steam calvery' existed for the situation where NO diesel power was available from any source to keep traffic moving.  Just putting steam back in service would have required the army of men to bring the steam power back to life and and another army to maintain the power in operating condition.  

Just on a guess - to bring 65 steam engines out of storage and keep them operating in revenue services would 'probably' have required at least 650 men in the various crafts that only had a purpose in working with steam engines.

I suspect, bringing in the UP leased power did not result in the employment of any more mechanical craft positions they already existed before the UP power was leased.

[Miningman]

Overmod states " And today we'd see railfan pilgrimages, likely from many sources that know or care little about Canadian steam, to see matched sets of FAs in service..."

Here we are:

United States 

Monticello Railway Museum

6789 repainted in old paint scheme and restored to operation at Monticello Railway Museum, Monticello, Indiana. 

Shown here at Streamliners at Spencer four day event May 29 - June 1, 2014 at North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer, North Carolina where the former Southern Railroad 37-stall roundhouse hosted this gathering displaying more than two dozen covered wagons. 6789 was a star of the event being the only working Alco unit. Warren Mayhew 

---

Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR 
Independence (Cleveland) Ohio

CVSR 6771 returing northbound at Peninsula, Ohio. 9/06/2014 

CVSR 6777 newly painted to match 6771 first unit in new paint scheme. 
Akron, Ohio 1/21/2017 

Note: Two other MLW FPA-4's units (ex CNR 6767 and 6780) are located here, one (6780) repainted as B&O 800 to honour the former B&O branchline operated to Akron (51 miles) for tourist trains through Cuyahoga Valley National Park.
In addition, ex CP 1822 a MLW RS-18 operates as well as ex CP 4241 MLW C-424.
In 2016 a record ridership increased 15% to 214,063 passengers! 

---

Western Maryland Scenic 
Cumberland, Maryland 

"WM 305" acq. 1990 (ex VIA/CN 6771) FPA-4 MLW 83149 1/1959 
Note: Trailing unit ex VIA 6780 acq. 1991 MLW 83158 3/1959 
Note: Both units later went to Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR See above.

[Miningman]

Terrific items NDG. Thanks for the memories. Great history.Glad you agree...  you would know better than most, too bad it didn't happen.

[Jones1945]

Firelock76

If I remember correctly, the Union Pacific didn't retire the last of their Challengers and Big Boys until '61 or '62.  They weren't runnning them of course, just keeping them around "just in case." 

I wish it wasn't the Challengers or Big Boys but a PRR S1 and some T1s.  But Pennsy had plenty of K4s, J1s and M1s for the "Just in Case" situation until 1958.  

I guess around the late-1950s, the whole transportation system of the States was comprehensive enough that Railroads didn't need to keep a fleet of the steam engine for an emergency situation. Even steam engine in Canada, the UK and Europe retired gradually. I think the UK was the most "coal-burning power" friendly country at the moment, folks in the British keep bringing their steam locomotive back to their railway system. 20 years ago, I could never have imagined that UK folks re-streamlined a LMS Coronation Class and rebuilding a LNER Class P2! 

[NDG]

 

 

I have been thinking back, almost 60 years, now, and agree, CP COULD have reactivated steam IF THEY HAD TO, if no Diesels available, regardless of the expense.

 

They had put steam BACK ON the commuter trains in 1960 to release S/G Diesels for freight use, as the Infrastructure was still in place AND, THE STEAM ENGINES RETURNED to home base next morning for Roundhouse Servicing and Coaling.

 

At the far end the locomotives and trains were turned and supervised overnight by a Locomotive Watchman keeping the heat on in the trains.

 

It would have been possible to use Steam in areas where there was Infrastructure in place, esp water en route, and Montreal and Toronto would have much of that left.

 

Canny Management wanted to cover their asses just in case Diesel power not available????

 

Yes, there would have been ' a Window ' for this to happen. How long the window was open???  Maybe sometime 1962??

 

Tube Time would run out?? but could be extended??

 

I was IN the Roundhouse @ St Luc, to warm up - 20 F in Feb 1962, and there were still 10-12 steam engines inside, nice and warm. 50 or so outside, doomed.

 

Photos somewhere of Moi FREEZING on footboards of R Hudson outside.

 

CP 5114 and 5145 were there, too. My Faves.

 

Older photo. CP 5114. had modern number box at end.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Lambton/5114b.jpg

 

https://archives.lib.uconn.edu/islandora/object/20002:860200258

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/two.htm

 

When steam left, it was overnite!!

 

Waited for most of July 1960 for them to reappear.

 

The cartoon mentioned was by Doug Wright at Lachine on the Lakeshore, a lady pulling at her Husband, waiting for an Inbound Commuter, she thinking the UP Power on the West was a Thru Limited for Hollywood.

 

I cut the cartoon out and had it for years. 

 

Here are other Wright Cartoons.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LinDFdUv5JE/VQN0LlMrdzI/AAAAAAAACIc/n-nBuYfkr7c/s1600/CNR%2B50%2C%2BDoug%2BWright%2C%2BCanadian%2BRail%2C%2BJune%2B1963%2C%2BCHRA%2B.png

 

From here.

 

http://turcotyard.blogspot.com/2015/03/cnrs-montreal-vaudreuil-commuter-trains.html

 

CNR

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-nId5spCmAP8/Vgb_dkJomkI/AAAAAAAAVK4/V6AEujajdiM/s1600-r/Cartoon%2BWesley%2B-%2B6.jpg

 

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2011/06/then-and-now-portage-la-prairie-1980.html

 

Two errors were apparent in two other cartoons.

 

In the Cartoon the UP FA had four 4 windshield wipers. In another, CN 5107 Pacific on a Foamer Excursion did NOT have a FWH in real life.

 

Memories.

 

FWIW.

 

CN 49  Under the Wire, Central Station, Montreal The actual train was brought INTO the station by an Electric, the steam engine backed down to opposite end, after Servicing. Note FRONT steam line, not that common, unless for Thawing or Snow Melter Service.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cnr_steam2/49b.jpg

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cnr_steam2/49.htm

 

Have to go.

 

Thank You.

[Miningman]

Fascinating Dude- And from the UP to boot! Nothing new as it's all been done before. Whaddyaknow eh ?

[SD70Dude]

Miningman

...leasing a whack of UP derated ready for scrap Diesels...

The ex-UP GE Dash-8's CN is currently leasing fit your description exactly.  Not to mention the ones they bought outright a few years ago.

We have one of the CP GP30's at the Alberta Railway Museum, 5000 (nee 8200).  Unfortunately it is near the bottom of the priority list, and I believe it's engine is seized.

[Miningman]

Well yeah, you would think the CPR kept this strategic reserve put away in a condition that makes a comeback very easy and smooth. They were meticulous with steam and only the newest and latest shopped out and overhauled would make the reserve. Stored away properly. Memory being what it is I can somewhat attest that the steam infrastructure was very much intact for that very purpose, at least in Southern Ontario. 

I think the new CPR management saw the whole strategic reserve as a costly error and they were too progressive to embrace what the previous management did, just because. 

Makes you wonder what CNR's response would be. Ridicule, snickering and put downs or flabbergasted at the huge positive wave that would have ensued. 

However as NDG pointed out the GP30's were soon on their way but surprisingly they only took 2. So that was no calvary. 

 

[Jones1945]

I am reading and learning about this case... If those 65 steam locomotives were well maintained and ready to run again anytime, all the facilities for steam engines operation were intact and functional, there was enough manpower to handle this special task, I do wish CPR would have used them for this saving-USSR's-people mission.

But of course, if the operating cost was higher than renting the FAs and the management were not confident enough to make sure all the facilities and engines would still working well as the good old days, I can understand why they made such decision. 

Richard Leonard's Rail Archive

[Miningman]

Amazing!... Thanks for that Peter...good memory. So it did not go unnoticed.

[M636C]

I recall that Trains in 1964 reproduced a contemporary Canadian cartoon relating to the UP FAs in grain service in Canada. A couple were standing on a station platform, while a train led by the UP FA and FBs passed, and the man was saying to the woman "No it isn't a direct train to Hollywood, just locomotives leased to haul the Russian grain..."

Owners of the DVD could confirm the issue...

Peter

[Miningman]

NDG-- If anywhere the CPR could have pulled this off out of John St. Roundhouse, Union Station Toronto.  Everything was intact for steam all the way down to Windsor, even on trackage rights thru to Bayview Jct connection and onto the TH&B. 

Yes I do recall the Boston And Maine, the D&H and especially the Bessemer units. I kept listening for steam on the Milton Main Line, rumours were rampant.

The crossing at Campbellville is one of those that just screams steam, you would swear it's coming any minute now. Jubilees, Hudsons, Pacific's, good grief. 

I just don't think the CPR forgot how to do this in a very few scant years...or else why harbour such a backup 'just in case'.

Hot water and steam cleaning allows fitters to work on moving parts etc. and, it looks nice!

[NDG]

Leased Diesels.

 

I was living in Montreal when those UP FA/Bs were around, plus locomotives from other US Roads. Memorable were the B&LE EMD F Units which lasted for years.

 

Over a period of time Montreal hosted Alco power from D&H, SOO and B&M, also B&M EMD Fs.

 

Ottawa. Locomotive far right is an E8. Tank-type tower is for locomotive coal, several built after the War.

 

http://www.canadianrailwayobservations.com/2010/nov10/lbc779brucechapman.jpg

 

There were three 3 CPR Steam engines stored outside for quite a while, CP 1227-1272 and CP 2409, the latter apparently the LAST steam locomotive to go thru Angus Shops.

 

CNRs last overhaul in Montreal was CN 49, one of the Tank Engines.

 

http://www.shpsc.org/images/locomotive-vapeur.jpg

 

The 3 CP Locomotives were pictured in a glossy Ziel book " Twilight of Steam " as I recall. Could be wrong.

 

I DOUBT CP would be able to support steam after late 1961 or early 1962 as much of the infrastructure would be gone, as well as many of the Support Staff.

 

The last CPR steam engine I saw under steam was a light move over to Westmount in Feb 1961 for stationary coach heating Service. We heard the WHISTLE!! and hoped.

 

WINTER plays a BIG factor in Steam operation re FREEZING and Steam heat would have to be kept up in many buildings = COST. Boilers would need to be washed per the Rules, and so on.

 

Protecting against frost damage was/is a BIG issue, everywhere, not just locomotives.

 

Standpipes and water towers along the line every thirty miles or so still have to be heated = fuel and wages. Locomotive Watchmen require at Distant points, Turntable or Wyes in some cases = snow clearing for same.

 

Steam requires WATER. In the East it was Coal = all the coaling and ash pit and handling crap.

 

Have no proof, and Diesel Units were available.

 

Soon the GP30s would arrive, provoking another type of Foam and Drool, and mad chases after the last of the CNR freight OP.

 

Did not stop us from going down to see the three in the grass, and play Engineer on them. CP 1272 was in lovely shape. Could not ring the bells, as Roundhouse too close, 539, 244 and 251 in profusion, idling away.

 

A Train Master showing up from time to time on it's annual shuttle from East to West, and back to switch Overseas grain, at the Coast ( Atlantic ), and CP 8921 C-C, back and forth on the Transfer.

 

Too bad steam did not happen, again.

 

We hoped, and hoped. Mais, was not to be.

 

I WOULD stop and look at an A-B-B-A of UP 244 NOW and a 539 churping the day away, on spot. 244 would rate a listen, definitely.

 

We chased CN 9302, driving like crazy thru city traffic one sticky humid day. Within a month it was on the scrap line, Builder's Plates gone, later to appear in a collection.

 

http://yourrailwaypictures.com/OldDiesels/FM018.jpg

 

A photo exists of CN 9302 alone heading a Passenger, with S/G car on Freight trucks at Newcastle, NB not long before.

 

 

Big changes, not necessarily for the better?

 

Streetcars had just left, and all THAT infrastructure. Wire, Track, Power Distribution, Support.

 

Two-Man Cars = a Conductor, for backing at Wyes.

 

Two-Man Cars.  Note switch lamps atop road dividers.  Their round concrete bases allowed them to be moved readily by rolling.

 

https://ville.montreal.qc.ca/memoiresdesmontrealais/sites/ville.montreal.qc.ca.memoiresdesmontrealais/files/styles/chm-blog-non-contraint-modal/public/06m_p48s1p11914_feature._place_st._henri_poirier_conrad_1912-1968_-_29_aout_1945.jpg?itok=FSv3EmLV

 

The Tramways DID have some One-Man Cars that had a Controller at rear end for backing, they lasting almost to the end.

 

Mais, Je Digress.

 

A void.

 

But the Caravans moved on, they always do.

 

Knowing what I know, Now. 

 

Next went the jobs, inexorably.

 

No longer " The Greatest. " 

 

https://media.aphelis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/FRASER_1937_Travel_by_Train_Canadian_Pacific-620x867.jpg

 

Thank You.

 

Woof! 

 

The Kat says he dislikes Camels.

[Firelock76]

Steam infrastructure didn't disappear that  quickly during the early 60's, as a matter of fact if the CPR was like a lot of American 'roads chances are all they did with the steam support facilities was lock the doors and walk away, especially when they found out those same facilities didn't work too well for diesels.  Demolition costs money, and if you don't have to spend it right away then why rush?

If I remember correctly, the Union Pacific didn't retire the last of their Challengers and Big Boys until '61 or '62.  They weren't runnning them of course, just keeping them around "just in case." 

[Miningman]

Also I suspect that all the important positions of management had changed considerably since the initial decision was made to have that reserve. Not the same bunch of folks. They had no use for steam, fearing they would be perceived as backwards and ridiculed.

However I was around in those days and quite aware and I can attest much of the infrastructure was still standing especially in Southern Ontario. Water and coal towers were in every town, including where I lived in Burlington. Also in Hamilton and London.  In sight along highways and such. It started disappearing en masse mid 60's.

Yes Canada is an affluent country but leasing a whack of UP derated ready for scrap Diesels in order to appear not to be backwards when prudent measures were taken well ahead of time seems vain. Not to mention the lost experience to us all. Oh well, that's what happened. 

Would have been a fun time, one more time, the real deal. 

Perhaps they should have tapped into that British heritage they cling to because the Brits were sure as heck running mainline steam everywhere at the time.