A short course in Railroading ... For Airline executives (by Southern Pacific 1946)

[Jones1945]

This advertisement was found in LIFE ( 23 Sep 1946 )

Competition between Railroads and Airlines turned white-hot after the WW II. Limited capacity of early civil aircraft didn’t allow the Airline to further decrease the ticket fares, but later when larger and faster airplanes were available, even the fare was no longer a competitive weapon of railroads. Long distance flight service became the new mainstream travel method globally, a nonreversible trend……

 

We know the rest is history......

Did our fallen flags put enough effort to save the passenger train business?

What would you do, if you were the CEO of the fallen flags and you have one chance to rewrite history?

Please feel free to express your thought! 

*tool: https://westegg.com/inflation/  The Inflation Calculator 

 

 

[BaltACD]

Airlines have advanced to the point that on many carriers - the 1st Checked Bag is within 50 cents of the computed round trip LA-SF quoted fare.

[Miningman]

You need to get your head read to fly these days... and back then as well!

[Jones1945]

I am not interested in civil aviation but I don't mind if train service was replaced by planes or flying boat like the Bristol Brabazon or Dornier DO-X or train like the UAC turbotrain. They were actually interesting and offer roomy space to the passengers......I never enjoy flying, if there is HSR connect to both cities center, I would take HSR instead of airplane if the difference of travel time is less than 3 hours, but if it was a business trip I would have no choice...... Imagine UAC Turbotrain came 20 years earlier......

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Miningman

You need to get your head read to fly these days... and back then as well!

 

Not at all.  If you demand accomodations similar to sleeping cars, then you are doomed to failure.  First class or business class on the airlines that provide such service is not that different from parlor car accomodations, although swivel seats have vanished from similar service on railroads.  Coach class is a bit tight, but you get what you pay for.

     Long-distance trains as a viable business travel option were doomed beginning in 1958, when the 707 and DC-8 entered service.

[Miningman]

As Jones45 recently posted:

I really like the "positive mood" of this advertisement......There are things that I want to experence when traveling alone.

 

If you choose to fly over a Pullman after the war until around 1955-56 you missed out on the best of the best and probably arrived a white knuckled mess. 

 

If you think that flying today is a joy then you must love misery, annoyance, inconvenience and a whole host of other disgusting nonsense. 

 

60's, 70's first 5 years into the 80's ok to fly , not so nutty. I would still much prefer the train those years regardless of destination. 

[rrnut282]

As a former airline worker, it was fascinating to tour museums with a railroad ticket office as I recognized a lot of the same equipment (the cosmo validator was EXACTLY like one I used at work) and similar forms.   The airlines 'stole' so much from airlines besides passengers.  

[BLS53]

Difficult to believe that the railroad industry was in that much of a state of delusion and denial.

[Jones1945]

They could't simply told their employees and stockholders that:" o yea our future is doomed, abandon ship now ". SP was doing just fine btw. 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Jones1945

They could't simply told their employees and stockholders that:" o yea our future is doomed, abandon ship now ". SP was doing just fine btw. 

 

SP's disillusionment with passenger service came when they streamlined the "Sunset Ltd".  They spent a lot of bucks on five complete sets of trains and nothing happened.  The passengers did not show up at the depot for the upgraded service and management not unreasonably came to the conclusion that the money spent on passenger service was wasted.

[Jones1945]

CSSHEGEWISCH

 SP's disillusionment with passenger service came when they streamlined the "Sunset Ltd".  They spent a lot of bucks on five complete sets of trains and nothing happened.  The passengers did not show up at the depot for the upgraded service and management not unreasonably came to the conclusion that the money spent on passenger service was wasted.

I would say money well spent for waking the management up. The "New" Sunset Ltd in 1950 was a great train but as a travel-oriented train, it was still not good enough to attract patrons with those new equipment. I read some brochures of the new Sunset Ltd of 1950, those cars with so called “well decorated interior with different color schemes” were no different from an ordinary restaurant in town, overall the train was not luxury or creative enough to WOW the public or to lure the passenger back. It’s hard to believe they made 5 consists of it……

Who put those lace stockings on the wall?

[M636C]

Jones1945

 

 

CSSHEGEWISCH

 SP's disillusionment with passenger service came when they streamlined the "Sunset Ltd".  They spent a lot of bucks on five complete sets of trains and nothing happened.  The passengers did not show up at the depot for the upgraded service and management not unreasonably came to the conclusion that the money spent on passenger service was wasted.

 

 

I would say money well spent for waking the management up. The "New" Sunset Ltd in 1950 was a great train but as a travel-oriented train, it was still not good enough to attract patrons with those new equipment. I read some brochures of the new Sunset Ltd of 1950, those cars with so called “well decorated interior with different color schemes” were no different from an ordinary restaurant in town, overall the train was not luxury or creative enough to WOW the public or to lure the passenger back. It’s hard to believe they made 5 consists of it……

Who put those lace stockings on the wall?

 

Surely SP management realised that passenger service was on the way out when they cancelled their two train sets for the "Golden Rocket" in 1949 or so... Rock Island kept their set, and it was used on the slower "Golden State".

 

The "Golden Rocket" was supposed to run on a sub 40 hour schedule from Chicago to Los Angeles to compete with ATSF and UP.

 

The Golden Rocket, despite never actually running, influenced the car designs and the colour scheme of the Australian "Overland" train, built by the South Australian Railways in its own shops between 1949 and 1970 (lets not rush these things). It still runs, with a few original cars, between Melbourne Victoria and Adelaide South Australia.

 

Peter

[Miningman]

Well now that is pretty darn interesting and something I did not know.

Long Live the Rock Island RR!

[M636C]

Miningman

Well now that is pretty darn interesting and something I did not know.

Long Live the Rock Island RR!

 

Here is an example of the influence...

 

http://www.comrails.com/pic_gr/gr_scan_0131.html

 

This train, while not the "Overland" shows the style of the cars and the clour scheme. The locomotive was built in the SAR shops in 1951 using English Electric engines and electrical equipment. The colours match those of the Southern Pacific E7s purchased for the "Golden Rocket". The three leading coaches were built in the SAR shops in the mid 1960s. They match the external appearance of the Pullman Standard cars built for the RI for the "Golden Rocket", except that the roof was painted black while the US cars had matching red roofs. The fourth car was a 1940 steel car, also from the SAR shops in Islington in Adelaide and this was painted red and silver to match the later cars. he baggage car dates from the late 1960s, again in the PS style from the SAR works, and the trailing box car belongs to the Victorian Railways (the only part of the train not from the SAR workshops.

 

Peter

[Trinity River Bottoms Boomer]

Given the popularity of the Santa Fe's Super Chief, don't most agree that any attempt by SP-RI to even consider competing on the Chicago-LA route was pretty much doomed even while the ink was still wet on the drawing board?

Thanks for the Comrail link.  Now I know what I'm going to do during my free time for the duration of 2018.

I contacted and received the printed matter from Great Southern Rail regarding travel on the Indian Pacific, Overland, and Ghan.  Australia has facinated me since I first discovered this Magnificent Magical Continent in My Weekly Reader while attending grade school in Texas in the 50s.  How is GSR currently doing in the passenger rail market?

I still want to make the journey God and time permitting.  I have zero desire to See America First on Amtrak.  The Canadian turns me off too, since it no longer operates over Canadian Pacific. 

I have friends in the Pacific Northwest who I plan to visit next year.  Will fly Air Canada Frankfurt-Vancouver and ride the Rocky Mountaineer to Banff, then motor coach to Calgary, entering the States from Canada in a rent-a-car (Jeep).

...then it's off to Austrailia or Bust! 

 

 

 

[Trinity River Bottoms Boomer]

I almost forgot.  How silly of me.  I do plan to visit narrow gauge country in Colorado and ride the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad and Cumbres & Toltic Scenic Railroad and step back in time.  Who knows, I may never return to reality...

[Jones1945]

M636C

Here is an example of the influence...

 

http://www.comrails.com/pic_gr/gr_scan_0131.html

 

...This train, while not the "Overland" shows the style of the cars and the clour scheme. The locomotive was built in the SAR shops in 1951 using English Electric engines and electrical equipment. The colours match those of the Southern Pacific E7s purchased for the "Golden Rocket". The three leading coaches were built in the SAR shops in the mid 1960s. They match the external appearance of the Pullman Standard cars built for the RI for the "Golden Rocket", except that the roof was painted black while the US cars had matching red roofs...

This is interesting, Peter. SAR learned from the best, I note they had a history to building locomotives base on America's design, like the 520 class was trying to mimic PRR T1s appearance, even though the engine itself was a much smaller 4-8-4. My favorite of their steam locomotive was their 620 class “Sir Winston Dugan”,  Those chromed steel grille reminds me of the front end of The Green Diamond of IC. Mainline steam engines in Australia was much smaller than those served in the States though. 

620 class “Sir Winston Dugan”, Wiki

[Overmod]

Here's a different picture of the locomotive with its special train and the 'grille' installed.  Surely we can find a picture of this in color that shows the green livery (described as Hawthorn green with yellow stripes)!  Peter, tell us more about the Centenary Train.

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/resource/B+11584

And here's a subject that may be of some interest.  Take a look at this picture:

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/resource/B+74762

and tell me what's interesting about it.  I think someone, perhaps multiple someones at Islington, put quite a bit of work into this.  I wonder if it survives anywhere?

 

 

[Jones1945]

That shining grille at the front end was really amazing, If I was Baldwin, I would install similar thing on the front end of C&O M-1, too bad the train was a gigantic flop. : (

[M636C]

Overmod

Here's a different picture of the locomotive with its special train and the 'grille' installed.  Surely we can find a picture of this in color that shows the green livery (described as Hawthorn green with yellow stripes)!  Peter, tell us more about the Centenary Train.

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/resource/B+11584

And here's a subject that may be of some interest.  Take a look at this picture:

https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/resource/B+74762

and tell me what's interesting about it.  I think someone, perhaps multiple someones at Islington, put quite a bit of work into this.  I wonder if it survives anywhere?

 

Firstly, the train in the first photograph is not the "Centenary Train" which was made up of wooden clerestory cars released from suburban service by the conversion of the line to standard gauge using large streetcars generally similar to those remaining in New Orleans.

http://www.comrails.com/pic_cd/cd_p0109409.html

This photo shows a preserved Centenary car in the foreground and a steel 500 class car (the leading cars in the first photo) beyond the mail van.

The Centenary was in 1936 but the 500 and 600 class cars were built late in 1936 or in 1937, for the opening of the broad gauge to Port Pirie in that year. That photo is just north of Adelaide station heading north and may be a Port Pirie train. It might be the special train for the opening, with six of the total twelve 500 and 600 class cars attached. The trailing vehicle might be the SAR Commissioners car "Murray" used by General Douglas MacArthur on his arrival in 1942.

620 was obviously influenced by Gresley's "Cock o' the North". It is probably only as tall as a British locomotive. The steel cars are more or less to the outline of USA lightweight stock, but 3" narrower over body sheets. That gives a basis for comparing the 620 in size. It is probably similar in dimensions to the smaller Canadian Jubilees (but with 5'6" drivers) and was intended for use on secondary lines. Because the trains weren't large and the 620s proved quite fast, they were used on the relativel level northern lines, not so much on the hilly lines to the south. I think the stripes on 620 may have been yellow. and it would have looked a bit like 520 in this photo:

http://www.comrails.com/pic_cd/cd_p0109329.html

Note the difference beteween the yellow stripes on 520 and the cream window band on the steel cars.

This is what a 500 class compartment looked like:

http://www.comrails.com/pic_pf/pf_20091104_14.html

Note the elegantly finished woodwork: This was a 1980s restoration and the crude table was not original.

And that leads us nicely into the subject of the second photo.

That is a wooden half scale(?) model of 620 in a parade, possibly the parade celebrating the Centenary in 1936. I can only imagine that someone wanted to put the real locomotive in the parade and that was as close as they could get. 620 itself was on display for some time at the annual agricultural show, and the photo in the earlier post shows it as it went on display. The tender trucks had not been completed and it was displayed with cast freight car trucks. The photo in the post above shows the equalised trucks. I don't think the model still exists. We are lucky they kept 621....

Not all of the SAR  locomotives were as small as 620. the thirty locomotives from Armstrong Whitworth in 1926 were lower in height than US locomotives but were as big as medium to small examples of Mountains, Pacifics and Mikados (ten each). The 500 and 600 classes certainly drew reactions from NSW and Victoria as they felt state pride was at stake.

The 600 class were as big as the VR S class, and despite having no fast long distance train to run, all ran twice the total distance covered by each of the VR locomotives in a life maybe five years longer.

There were three books on the 1926 locomotives titled 500. 600 and 700 and the first of these appeared in the late 1960s, published by the then "Mile End Railway Museum", now moved to Port Adelaide as the National Railway Museum. These were paperback but with excellent production values. A current book covering these locomotives as part of a multi volume History of the SAR is available. It is technically better but I still use the three old books. If copies can be found on Amazon or wherever, get one (or more).

Peter

[M636C]

To return to the Golden Rocket and the V&SAR Overland, the floor plans of the Golden Rocket cars appear on page 223 of Dubin's Some Classic Trains. The three car types of interest in this respect are the "Valle" class 48 seat coach cars, the 22 Roomette cars and the 12 double bedroom cars.

This model is of a generally similar 48 seat Golden State car:

https://brasstrains.sirv.com/products/071456/07145601558.jpg

Compare this with the V&SAR 44 seat AJ class car:

http://www.comrails.com/pic_common/img/b08-18.jpg

The Australian cars were about six feet shorter and three inches narrower, so could fit only eleven rows of seats. The large ladies rooms from the Golden Rocket cars were reproduced in the AJ cars.

There were also much less luxurious BJ cars with closer spaced reclining seats.

The Golden Rocket was unusual in having full length 22 Roomette cars and twelve double bedroom cars, instead of the more common "10 and 6" cars.

The Overland had cars with 20 Roomettes and cars with ten Twinette compartments. These Twinettes resembled the double bedroom compartments with transverse berths but the pairs of compartments were separated by two compartments each containing showers and folding toilets and washbasins, an important step forward in on board facilities.

http://www.comrails.com/pic_common/img/b08-12.jpg

The SAR Commissioner of the time, Harrison visited the USA in 1947, and is understood to have visited Pullman Standard while the Golden Rocket cars were under construction.

I saw this photograph reproduced as a large rear illuminated transparency in the bookshop at LAUPT in 1997.

https://www.american-rails.com/images/GSLAMirada.jpg

It was the first time I had seen a colour photo of the Golden Rocket coupled to the SP E7s painted to match the train.

Peter

[Jones1945]

M636C

http://www.comrails.com/pic_common/img/b08-12.jpg

The trucks used on the car in this pic looks like GSC 43-R Trucks aka Pullman prewar truck, I bet they are some imitation?

[M636C]

Jones1945

 

 

M636C

http://www.comrails.com/pic_common/img/b08-12.jpg

 

 

 

The trucks used on the car in this pic looks like GSC 43-R Trucks aka Pullman prewar truck, I bet they are some imitation?

 

The trucks were introduced around 1940 on the 700 series cars and were used extensively up to the mid 1950s. The frames were welded fabrications, so would not have infringed any design rights of GSC cast trucks.

They were replaced on long distance cars (like the Overland) around 1955 by conventional cast equalised trucks as used in the USA at that time. I understand that the introduction of heavy duty shock absorbers in conjunction with coil secondary suspension was the main improvement.

The 700 series never got the new trucks, and the trucks from the long distance cars were used under new suburban diesel railcars for local service around Adelaide.

Nothing is ever wasted...

Peter

[Jones1945]

M636C

620 was obviously influenced by Gresley's "Cock o' the North". It is probably only as tall as a British locomotive. The steel cars are more or less to the outline of USA lightweight stock, but 3" narrower over body sheets. That gives a basis for comparing the 620 in size. It is probably similar in dimensions to the smaller Canadian Jubilees (but with 5'6" drivers) and was intended for use on secondary lines. Because the trains weren't large and the 620s proved quite fast, they were used on the relativel level northern lines, not so much on the hilly lines to the south. I think the stripes on 620 may have been yellow. and it would have looked a bit like 520 in this photo:

http://www.comrails.com/pic_cd/cd_p0109329.html

Note the difference beteween the yellow stripes on 520 and the cream window band on the steel cars.

This is what a 500 class compartment looked like:

http://www.comrails.com/pic_pf/pf_20091104_14.html

Gresley's P2 2-8-2 "Cock o' the North" was one of my favorite engines of UK in terms of appearance, I love the design of it more than A4 or Coronation Class, it wasn't as fast as those streamlined engines in mid-30s but how the designer made the smoke lifter blending into the boiler and let it become part of the body was interesting. No wonder SAR 620 was influenced by it, the CEO of SAR was probably a railfan who loves streamlined engines! Anyway, I think the one of a kind (front end design), 620 Sir Winston Dugan was unique and the headlight above the smoke box was something we couldn't find in most of the steam engine of UK, SAR really did a great job on 620.

I have an OO gauge model of LNER P2 and placed it beside a HO gauge PRR S2, it still made S2 looks like a giant even though it is an OO gauge model, but it doesn’t change the fact that both of them were a classy engine.

: )

M636C

The 700 series never got the new trucks, and the trucks from the long distance cars were used under new suburban diesel railcars for local service around Adelaide.

Nothing is ever wasted...

 

Glad to know that they cherish their equipment they had. I wonder if the airlines, trucks and buses affected RRs in Australia just like America or not?

[Trinity River Bottoms Boomer]

OO vs. HO.  Which scale operates on correct standard 4 ft. 8.5 inch gauge track?

 

[Jones1945]

Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

OO vs. HO.  Which scale operates on correct standard 4 ft. 8.5 inch gauge track?

wow sorry for the late reply, I didn't see this post until now! OO scale in UK is 1/76, HO scale in US and EU is 1/87, my models at both scale can operate on HO scale track, you could find the detail this topic  here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OO_gauge  I don't have a very detailed layout so it is not a big deal to me but a OO scale human figures or objects would be too large to fit in a 1/87 passenger car seat or layout. It is better to decide the scale of the scheme of your layout before you start building it if you are very serious about accurate. You could find more detail at Model Railroader Forum.

 

[Trinity River Bottoms Boomer]

Thanks for your reply.  I'm still confused as to which scale, OO or HO, properly operate on standard gauge track though.  While traditional O gauge trains (Lionel, Atlas, MTH, etc.) run on 5 ft. gauge track, Proto 48 models operate on correct 4' 8 and 1/2" (standard gauge) track. 

[Jones1945]

My tracks on my layout are mixed with 30-year old brass-made track in HO scale, Bachmann’s general tracks in HO scale and some Hornby tracks at OO scale, they are compatible and able to connect to each other. All my trains model of UK, German and US could run on them without problem as long as the track is clean and the engines are maintained constantly. 

[M636C]

Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

Thanks for your reply.  I'm still confused as to which scale, OO or HO, properly operate on standard gauge track though.  While traditional O gauge trains (Lionel, Atlas, MTH, etc.) run on 5 ft. gauge track, Proto 48 models operate on correct 4' 8 and 1/2" (standard gauge) track. 

 

The British run 1/76 models on 16.5mm gauge, which gives a gauge of just over 4 feet rather than 4' 8-1/2". HO models are 1/87 and the 16.5mm gauge is correct. Lionel made OO gauge before WWII which ran on 19mm gauge and was correct.

 

Some British modellers stay with 1/76 but use either 18mm or 18.83mm gauge, called EM or P4.

 

A few British models were available in HO. Fleischmann made a nice Warship class diesel hydraulic and some coaches. Models of the EMD JT42CWR (Class 66) are available sice these are used in Europe also.

 

O gauge is much more complicated.

 

The British build O scalle models to 1/43.5 (exactly twice HO) which gives the right gauge with O gauge track. In Europe they decided to go with 1/45, and in the USA, they use 1/48.

 

In Australia, 1/43.5 is used but people who model 5'3" gauge track use 1:48.

 

This means you can use the same track but you can't run the models together.

 

Peter

[Jones1945]

I never owned any O gauge model from different countries, but I once searched for a C&O M-1 for display. My first N scale train model was a gift from my father, but I didn't become a "N-scaler" for many reasons. I just tested on my layout to double confirm that if a HO gauge model ( T1 by BLI, DCC ready) and a OO gauge (Coronation Scot 4-6-0 by Hornby, Not DCC ready) could run on the same track (DC only) without problems, they were running fine beside the 4-6-0 was running too fast and almost hit the T1. I don't know if there would be any problem if a HO gauge and OO gauge train, both are DCC ready but made in different countries, running on the same single track. Anyway, I don't have much time to further develop my shabby layout in the near future. 

An O gauge "layout".