Less is more? Successful Streamliner made by rebuilt equipment.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 7:08 AM

Thank you very much, Peter. I found a 3D model of it: 

source: https://www.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?302323-Another-new-model-for-the-Monon

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 6:35 AM

I can't find a pic of the rebuilt observation cars front end, it was an interesting design which compromised aesthetics and architectural structure of the car.

On page 181 of Arthur Dubin's "More Classic Trains" there is a clear photo of the observation end of Monon observation car number 71. These two books were based on Trains magazine articles, so this should be in the compilation DVDs also.

Peter

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 4:54 AM

M636C

......All the centre corridor cars had amazing folding tables that could either act as a full dining table or disappear into the side walls. The side corridor cars had all glass full height partitions and glass sliding doors, so the view from the seats on the corridor side was as good as the window side. The seats reclined. Matching cars with HEP generators were provided to allow operation on different overhead line voltages without break....

Thank you, Peter. 
This is a video of the train from YouTube. All Aboard! (Starting from 01:40)

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 4:44 AM

M636C

To return to Army Hospital Cars:

100 were built as USAX 89300 to 89399. All sold in 1947.....

Thank you for providing detailed imformation of these Army Hospital Cars, Peter.
I can find more pics of them by adding the term "USAX" in the search engine.

in 1948 Chicago Rail Fair

http://hebners.net/Amtrak/amtBAGDORM.html

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 12:59 AM

The French TEE Cars:

These were built under licence to Budd by Carel Fouche in France.

There were two batches:

1964 for the Paris Brussels Amsterdam service:

1969 for the Paris Marseilles Nice "Mistral" service.

There were of course matching dining cars and both open centre corridor cars and side corridor compartment cars were built. All the centre corridor cars had amazing folding tables that could either act as a full dining table or disappear into the side walls. The side corridor cars had all glass full height partitions and glass sliding doors, so the view from the seats on the corridor side was as good as the window side. The seats reclined. Matching cars with HEP generators were provided to allow operation on different overhead line voltages without break.

Many of these cars are now in Cuba.

Peter 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by M636C on Tuesday, September 4, 2018 12:09 AM

To return to Army Hospital Cars:

100 were built as USAX 89300 to 89399. All sold in 1947.

25 cars were sold to Ringling Brothers Circus as Dormitory cars. One preserved.

22 cars sold to the Alaska Railroad, used as coaches, diners, baggage cars

28 cars sold to Monon, used as coaches, parlor, diner, observation. Some cars included a lunch counter, one observation included dining seats.

5 cars sold to Southern Pacific as baggage dormitory cars.

10 cars sold to ACL. Most as Baggage Dormitory cars, one full baggage and two Business cars. One car not used.

So where did the Amtrak cars come from?

Come the Korean War, 63 more Hospital Cars were ordered from St Louis Car in 1951, delivered late 1952-early 1953, USAX 89506-89568.

These had similar bodies to the 1944 cars but had four wheel trucks.

58 cars were sold to Amtrak in 1973, a few as 32 seat bar-lounge cars, most as baggage-dormitory cars some of which had HEP generators, and one as an instruction car.

Fifteen cars were sold to the South Branch Valley Railroad.

St Louis also built 89 much shorter Army Kitchen Cars USAX 89600-89688 in 1953.

69 of these became Amtrak Baggage cars, of which six were fitted as HEP generator cars.

So the Army wasn't expecting the Korean War...

Peter

 

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 3, 2018 12:07 PM
You are definitely right, Dave. I always forget to not using my personal preferences to replace RR’s official definition of their fleet when posting on the public forum. I personally don't consider passenger cars without skirting as streamlined equipment, but “structurally” and officially, if they had an arch roof or large picture windows with rounded corners after modification, they were really streamlined.
 
 
As a railfan who loves almost all streamlined things from the past, I especially care about the skirting of trains thus I am quite disappointed with the design of PRR P85b and all new passenger cars built in 50s since they almost had no skirting at all (I call them mini skirt Laugh).
 
I understand that it was much easier for maintenance and good for heat dissipation without skirting, but I believe this is not a difficult task to sort out, many high-speed passenger cars in EU had skirting under their passenger cars.  
 
 
 

Refurbished P70 by PRR in 1936 (scheme 3, side view)

 INOX built passenger car used on the L'Oiseau Bleu TEE in 70s

 

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 3, 2018 8:23 AM

The car bodies were not really new, with the side and ceneter sills and body bolters, end plates, and certain other structural elements retained.

The new arch roof make the first version as streamlined as most rebuilt heavyweight cars for stramlined trains were.  The only really important differene, other than paint, between them and the latr version is that they retained single windows, where as those painted in the streamlining scheme were rebuilt with picture windows.    And you are correct that some P70s were never rebujilt, like those handling the New York and Long Branch service through the end of steam there.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 3, 2018 6:08 AM

daveklepper

Up to the PRR-NYC merger into PC, most PRR "lightweight" coaches were really rebuilt P-70s.  In several varieties.

IIRC there were more than 1000 P70 coaches built by PRR, 300 of them was refurbished in late 30s including install of air-conditioner, new arch roof, new seats and car body.
However, these 300 refurbished P70 were not streamlined and painted with F.O.M scheme, so in order to provide enough cars to the Fleet of Modernism, 116 P70 was converted to P70kr and P70gsr with streamlining features in 1939. I believe many of them still serving in PC era. 
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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, September 3, 2018 5:52 AM

M636C
That was a very good deal for Monon. The Hospital Cars were basically brand new and had been built for use in the USA. They had a "streamlined" profile but had conventional heavweight trucks and construction.
 
I assume they had been ordered in advance of the expected invasion of Japan and would have been needed for the return of the anticipated casualties from that invasion. They were rendered surplus by the use of the nuclear bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and many were never used......

Thank you, Peter. I found this website about the historical background of these Hospital Cars and how they turned into Monon's prime trains: 

http://www.monon.org/Streamliners.html

I can't find a pic of the rebuilt observation cars front end, it was an interesting design which compromised aesthetics and architectural structure of the car.
Invasion of the Axis, landing of Nazi German or the Japanese has been a topic of people who are interested in alternate history fiction since the War ended. Glad to see that these hospital cars didn't have to serve for military purpose. 

This is a very good movie made by the Monon, nice music, imformative histories and rare footage. Please enjoy:

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 3, 2018 5:17 AM

Up to the PRR-NYC merger into PC, most PRR "lightweight" coaches were really rebuilt P-70s.  In several varieties.

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Posted by M636C on Sunday, September 2, 2018 9:00 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

Don't forget Monon's streamliner equipment rebuilt from war surplus Army hospital cars.  They lasted until the end of Monon passenger service in 1967.

 
That was a very good deal for Monon. The Hospital Cars were basically brand new and had been built for use in the USA. They had a "streamlined" profile but had conventional heavweight trucks and construction.
 
I assume they had been ordered in advance of the expected invasion of Japan and would have been needed for the return of the anticipated casualties from that invasion. They were rendered surplus by the use of the nuclear bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and many were never used.
 
I seem to recall that a couple of these found their way to Amtrak directly from the Army, probably after some years of Army use. I think the Amtrak cars retained the sliding door intended for stretcher patients, and so were combines of some description.
 
I think the Monon were lucky in that they purchased theirs early. Had they waited until the Korean War began, the Army might have kept more of (or maybe all of)these ambulance cars.
 
I don't think any of the Ambulance cars were air conditioned as built so there was a lot of work to make up a train. However, these were well built cars and I think the Amtrak cars lasted into the 1980s.
 
Peter
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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, September 2, 2018 6:41 PM

Miningman

As opposed to this... all that's missing is a crate of chickens onthe top!

I don't see Jed, Ellie May, Jethro or Granny!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, September 2, 2018 4:36 PM
From 30s to 50s, it was the heaven of streamlining, From a door handle to a street lamp, from a taxi to a truck so many exquisite design.

Although many things are also streamlined nowadays but I don't like their "modern" style. Back in 1946, Streamlined long distance coaches was probably one of the biggest threat to Railroads. This is a rendering of the famous proposed Greyhound coaches designed by Raymond Loewy...... yes, its him again. Laugh

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Posted by Miningman on Sunday, September 2, 2018 3:01 AM

Does this lovely Studebaker fit in with our streamlined equipment or what!

They sure don't make them look like this anymore. 

Daily Star 1936 Studebaker truck.

As opposed to this... all that's missing is a crate of chickens onthe top!

Canadian Transfer Company, Limited delivery truck with a full load of luggage outside their place. 
This company handled travellers luggage between downtown hotels, steamships and trains.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, August 31, 2018 10:24 AM

A B&O HW Pullman Sleeper (12-1 ?)

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, August 23, 2018 2:25 AM

Thank you for the sharing, Csshegewisch and Overmod. Monon's streamliner was an very interesting case, the front end of the parlor-observation cars was one of a kind. The Firefly of Frisco was a really cute little train set. CoffeeCool

I always appreciate individual or company, especially smaller one, cherish their limited resources and using them to achieve their goals.
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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:09 PM

Or the Frisco Firefly -- there is an interesting set of three cars presently on eBay

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, August 22, 2018 10:05 AM

Don't forget Monon's streamliner equipment rebuilt from war surplus Army hospital cars.  They lasted until the end of Monon passenger service in 1967.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 6:46 PM

My understanding is that all the 'betterment' coaches, combines, and dining cars were all done at the B&O's Mt. Clare shops.  Pullman Company did all the betterment construction on all the Pullman operated cars.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Tuesday, August 21, 2018 4:18 AM
Thank you Peter and Balt! I almost forget that B&O was the first railroad company to use lightweight cars on their premier train like the Royal Blue (they even re-christened it) but I can't remember that B&O actually replaced them in 1937 because they unsatisfied with the ride quality. This really shown how enthusiastic and discreet the management of B&O was. I guess those 6-wheel trucks of the heavy weight cars played an important role in “Pullman level ride quality" wasn’t it? 

Many other railroads used Betterment cars too, like NYC and PRR, I love these betterment car with streamlined appearance and 6-wheel truck even more than those newer lightweight cars or sleeper. My favorite were PRR's betterment sleeper carried F.O.M livery, they always appeared in the consist of the General.

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Posted by cx500 on Monday, August 20, 2018 10:51 PM

BaltACD
suspect the left arch has been milled to provide clearance for 20' 2" double stacks to make it through the hole.

Yes, one bore was enlarged, but I believe it was not feasible to go to complete doublestack clearance for 9'-6" boxes.  At the time many were international boxes, which frequently included 8'-6" and 9'-0 heights.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 20, 2018 9:59 PM

M636C
To revert to the original topic, while B&O were a big user of rebuilt heavyweight cars (sometimes referred to as "betterment cars"), the B&O were right there at the beginning of lightweight cars with the Royal Blue and Abraham Lincoln trains built by ACF in 1934, so about the same time as the better remembered "Hiawathas".

The observation from the Abraham Lincoln, which passed to the GM&O through the Alton is preserved, and is probably the oldest lightweight car still in existence.

So why did the B&O replace a purpose built lightweight train with rebuilt heavyweight cars, in the case of the Royal Blue? Probably it was cheaper to upgrade car you owned, rather than build new.

Peter

The most common explanation of why the B&O shipped the lightweight train sets off to the Alton was the Daniel Willard (B&O's President at the time) did not feel the ride characteristics of lightweight equipments was up to the standards he felt the Royal Blue should possess.  It had nothing to do with cost.

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Posted by M636C on Monday, August 20, 2018 7:09 PM

To revert to the original topic, while B&O were a big user of rebuilt heavyweight cars (sometimes referred to as "betterment cars"), the B&O were right there at the beginning of lightweight cars with the Royal Blue and Abraham Lincoln trains built by ACF in 1934, so about the same time as the better remembered "Hiawathas".

The observation from the Abraham Lincoln, which passed to the GM&O through the Alton is preserved, and is probably the oldest lightweight car still in existence.

So why did the B&O replace a purpose built lightweight train with rebuilt heavyweight cars, in the case of the Royal Blue? Probably it was cheaper to upgrade car you owned, rather than build new.

Peter

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 20, 2018 6:29 PM

Miningman
Note the nice rounded arch on the left side has been destroyed either by design or accident. Yeah those clearances are pretty darn tight.

I suspect the left arch has been milled to provide clearance for 20' 2" double stacks to make it through the hole.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 20, 2018 6:02 PM

Note the nice rounded arch on the left side has been destroyed either by design or accident. Yeah those clearances are pretty darn tight.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 20, 2018 5:01 PM

Jones1945
Just a personal preference thing...... even a street lamp looked 100 times better in the past. But please don't send me back to that era by your time machine, unless you gave me tons of money I can use at that time. CoffeeSmile, Wink & Grin


Good thing auto racks don't need Brakemen decorating the tops of the cars through the tunnel.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, August 20, 2018 12:07 PM

Just a personal preference thing...... even a street lamp looked 100 times better in the past. But please don't send me back to that era by your time machine, unless you gave me tons of money I can use at that time. CoffeeSmile, Wink & Grin


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Posted by Miningman on Monday, August 20, 2018 11:30 AM

The picture caption above, stating last official steam run on the CASO, is not quite accurate. 1290 and 1291, a pair of 4-6-0's were based out of St. Thomas and the power for the St. Clair branch until the spring of 1957. Also I have pictures of Hudsons in passenger service approaching St. Thomas up to 1955, but these were almost for certain 'one of' substitute power. Also freight continued on with steam here and there for a few more years yet, Mikes and Mohawks but rapidly thinning out.  

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