Jones1945 M636C I found the video most interesting. I just muted the Japanese commentary. Most of the stations had an English translation of the name visible in the video, and having visited the area I was familiar with the places concerned. One giveaway was that the name "Harbin" was shown as katakana (Japanese phonetic symbols) since it was a Russian name. The same train clips are shown again and again but they are still interesting. The most interesting sequence was a "Pashina" streamlined Pacific on a train with two turn of the century wooden Pullmans including the observation car. The cities I saw, Changchun and Harbin, were little changed from the prewar scenes in the video. I think it is fair to say that Chairman Mao had almost no effect on the buildings in Changchun, since my visit postdated his death. We actually saw his body in the Mausoleum in Beijing. I stayed in the former "Yamato" hotel in Changchun, and the milk jug on the breakfast table still had the South Manchurian Railway logo on it. I actually saw three of the streamlined Pashinas, all in Changchun, two still streamlined but one completely destreamlined, in two visits in 1980 and 1985. Some of the clips show Changchun while Russian broad gauge trains still operated between there and Harbin. The Soviet "SSSR" logo is seen in photos of the transhipment process in Changchun. This dates that scene to before 1936 when the gauge conversion took place, but after introduction of the "Asia". Generally an interesting set of videos. Peter Glad to know you enjoy the video, Peter. I guess not many people on CT forum really interested in these streamlined Pacific like you and me, even though they had a deep connection with the American railroad industry. We had a thorough discussion with other forumers earlier that I really enjoyed. From my point of view, these early streamliners that outshined every single local train in Japan in terms of speed and luxury, was a symbol of ambition and determination of the Empire of Japan, they told the general public in the Empire of Manchuria how good the Japanese were capable of, and the legitimacy of the Empire. I believe people who lived in Northeast China who survived WWII but suffered, again and again, from all those devastating political movements launched by the CCP from the 1950s to the late 1970s, (+1989)... including Aisin-Gioro Puyi himself, missed the day when the Manchuria was actually running by the Japanese. Puyi was "lucky" enough that he didn't have to witness how the Northeast China was turned upside down during the Cultural Revolution, directly or indirectly by Chairman Mao, his evil wife, and his nephew, Mao Yuanxin. Yes, the Cultural Revolution was not an "urban renewal" project of CCP, like what Nicolae Ceaușescu did to the Bucharest, therefore, many but not all prewar historical buildings survived and still erected across Mainland China as long as it was not built with wood, like the Peace Hotel in Shanghai (used to be my favorite), though the number of victims, including many scholars who lost their lives during the Culture Revolution, as Deng Xiaoping said, "it was an astronomical figure." When I watched the video showing the fancy dining room on the Asia Express, I remembered a scene on a local train from Shenzhen to Guangzhou in the early 1990s during a business trip, it was a (at least) 18-car consist powered by a single 1800hp(?) DF-3 diesel engine. The "soft seat coach" ticket was sold out, so we were traveling on a "hard seat coach", it was like a buffet seat in the dining car with four seats facing each other, when we finished our lunch boxes, we searched for a rubbish bin but there was none, after about 20 mins, we found a train attendant and asked her how to handle the lunch boxes, she stared to us in the face, open the heavy window skillfully, throw all the lunch boxes outside without saying a word. Think about the butterfly effect and those lunch boxes......
M636C I found the video most interesting. I just muted the Japanese commentary. Most of the stations had an English translation of the name visible in the video, and having visited the area I was familiar with the places concerned. One giveaway was that the name "Harbin" was shown as katakana (Japanese phonetic symbols) since it was a Russian name. The same train clips are shown again and again but they are still interesting. The most interesting sequence was a "Pashina" streamlined Pacific on a train with two turn of the century wooden Pullmans including the observation car. The cities I saw, Changchun and Harbin, were little changed from the prewar scenes in the video. I think it is fair to say that Chairman Mao had almost no effect on the buildings in Changchun, since my visit postdated his death. We actually saw his body in the Mausoleum in Beijing. I stayed in the former "Yamato" hotel in Changchun, and the milk jug on the breakfast table still had the South Manchurian Railway logo on it. I actually saw three of the streamlined Pashinas, all in Changchun, two still streamlined but one completely destreamlined, in two visits in 1980 and 1985. Some of the clips show Changchun while Russian broad gauge trains still operated between there and Harbin. The Soviet "SSSR" logo is seen in photos of the transhipment process in Changchun. This dates that scene to before 1936 when the gauge conversion took place, but after introduction of the "Asia". Generally an interesting set of videos. Peter
I found the video most interesting.
I just muted the Japanese commentary.
Most of the stations had an English translation of the name visible in the video, and having visited the area I was familiar with the places concerned. One giveaway was that the name "Harbin" was shown as katakana (Japanese phonetic symbols) since it was a Russian name.
The same train clips are shown again and again but they are still interesting.
The most interesting sequence was a "Pashina" streamlined Pacific on a train with two turn of the century wooden Pullmans including the observation car.
The cities I saw, Changchun and Harbin, were little changed from the prewar scenes in the video. I think it is fair to say that Chairman Mao had almost no effect on the buildings in Changchun, since my visit postdated his death. We actually saw his body in the Mausoleum in Beijing. I stayed in the former "Yamato" hotel in Changchun, and the milk jug on the breakfast table still had the South Manchurian Railway logo on it.
I actually saw three of the streamlined Pashinas, all in Changchun, two still streamlined but one completely destreamlined, in two visits in 1980 and 1985.
Some of the clips show Changchun while Russian broad gauge trains still operated between there and Harbin. The Soviet "SSSR" logo is seen in photos of the transhipment process in Changchun. This dates that scene to before 1936 when the gauge conversion took place, but after introduction of the "Asia".
Generally an interesting set of videos.
Peter
Glad to know you enjoy the video, Peter. I guess not many people on CT forum really interested in these streamlined Pacific like you and me, even though they had a deep connection with the American railroad industry. We had a thorough discussion with other forumers earlier that I really enjoyed.
From my point of view, these early streamliners that outshined every single local train in Japan in terms of speed and luxury, was a symbol of ambition and determination of the Empire of Japan, they told the general public in the Empire of Manchuria how good the Japanese were capable of, and the legitimacy of the Empire.
I believe people who lived in Northeast China who survived WWII but suffered, again and again, from all those devastating political movements launched by the CCP from the 1950s to the late 1970s, (+1989)... including Aisin-Gioro Puyi himself, missed the day when the Manchuria was actually running by the Japanese. Puyi was "lucky" enough that he didn't have to witness how the Northeast China was turned upside down during the Cultural Revolution, directly or indirectly by Chairman Mao, his evil wife, and his nephew, Mao Yuanxin.
Yes, the Cultural Revolution was not an "urban renewal" project of CCP, like what Nicolae Ceaușescu did to the Bucharest, therefore, many but not all prewar historical buildings survived and still erected across Mainland China as long as it was not built with wood, like the Peace Hotel in Shanghai (used to be my favorite), though the number of victims, including many scholars who lost their lives during the Culture Revolution, as Deng Xiaoping said, "it was an astronomical figure."
When I watched the video showing the fancy dining room on the Asia Express, I remembered a scene on a local train from Shenzhen to Guangzhou in the early 1990s during a business trip, it was a (at least) 18-car consist powered by a single 1800hp(?) DF-3 diesel engine. The "soft seat coach" ticket was sold out, so we were traveling on a "hard seat coach", it was like a buffet seat in the dining car with four seats facing each other, when we finished our lunch boxes, we searched for a rubbish bin but there was none, after about 20 mins, we found a train attendant and asked her how to handle the lunch boxes, she stared to us in the face, open the heavy window skillfully, throw all the lunch boxes outside without saying a word. Think about the butterfly effect and those lunch boxes......
I have watched a number of videos illuminating China. The one thing they all seem to show is that China loves to build something new - but then hates to do what is required to maintain the things that have been build.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Peter Clark is one of the authorities in the English language on this service, and probably of the history of the South Manchuria Railway in development of that area up to the time of the high-speed train development. If I remember correctly, a large part of the establishment of 'Manchukuo' as a state was done more at the behest of the railroad company and its considerable investment in that area than for explicit political or co-prosperity sphere kinds of reasons, and that it represented a more-or-less progressive step away from the sort of warlord kleptocracy more typical of interwar Chinese 'government' at that time... take this with a grain of salt if it derives from Japanese sources, some of which can be a bit excusing when it comes to prewar issues in China.
Jones1945 A rather new upload of a documentary about The Asia Express run by the Japanese. Besides some footages of the trains, you will find some prewar footages of the cities in the Empire of Manchuria, a puppet state of the Empire of Japan in Northeast China and Inner Mongolia from 1932 until 1945. There are also footages of prewar China (ROC, Republic of China) cities before the country fell into the hand of the DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY Chineses Communist Party, showing many historic buildings and cultural activity that probably completely destroyed or uprooted during the cultural revolution that was orchestrated by Chairman Mao - a pathetic tyrant who killed more innocent people than Hitler. A drawing of the 2nd Class Coach used on the Asia Express (1934) A newly made YZ21 coach of the Communist China Railway in 1958, looks familiar, isn't it?
A rather new upload of a documentary about The Asia Express run by the Japanese. Besides some footages of the trains, you will find some prewar footages of the cities in the Empire of Manchuria, a puppet state of the Empire of Japan in Northeast China and Inner Mongolia from 1932 until 1945. There are also footages of prewar China (ROC, Republic of China) cities before the country fell into the hand of the DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY Chineses Communist Party, showing many historic buildings and cultural activity that probably completely destroyed or uprooted during the cultural revolution that was orchestrated by Chairman Mao - a pathetic tyrant who killed more innocent people than Hitler.
A drawing of the 2nd Class Coach used on the Asia Express (1934)
A newly made YZ21 coach of the Communist China Railway in 1958, looks familiar, isn't it?
Jones1945A rather new upload of a documentary about The Asia Express run by the Japanese. Besides some footages of the trains, you will find some prewar footages of the cities in the Empire of Manchuria, a puppet state of the Empire of Japan in Northeast China and Inner Mongolia from 1932 until 1945. There are also footages of prewar China (ROC, Republic of China) cities before the country fell into the hand of the DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY Chineses Communist Party, showing many historic buildings and cultural activity that probably completely destroyed or uprooted during the cultural revolution that was orchestrated by Chairman Mao - a pathetic tyrant who killed more innocent people than Hitler. A drawing of the 2nd Class Coach used on the Asia Express (1934) A newly made YZ21 coach of the Communist China Railway in 1958, looks familiar, isn't it?
Interesting but my Japanese is rusty to non-existant.
I found some pic of SL 811:
This one is SL 7XX
Overmod One important recognized issue with Nystrom's development was that high-speed trucks rode smoothly at 'design' high speed, but not nearly so well at lower speeds or over less perfect trackwork. At the time I believe Nystrom said this was inherent in the physics of high-speed car design.
One important recognized issue with Nystrom's development was that high-speed trucks rode smoothly at 'design' high speed, but not nearly so well at lower speeds or over less perfect trackwork. At the time I believe Nystrom said this was inherent in the physics of high-speed car design.
Overmod It's interesting tocompare priorities in the current high-speed trucks that stress reduction of unsprung mass, and the last generations of outside-spring-hanger equalized trucks (such as the one John White illustrated from one of the last New Haven orders in The American Passenger Car v.2). I am still not quite certain how the beam-equalized trucks under the NYC jet RDC ran adequately for 183 safe mph, without a great deal of stuff being done to them. Or how one gets the GSC trucks under the Metroliners to run reliably at anticipated speeds without knocking track mechanics like crazy. (Or why the first-generation Waggon Union trucks on Superliners had so many weird issues...)
It's interesting tocompare priorities in the current high-speed trucks that stress reduction of unsprung mass, and the last generations of outside-spring-hanger equalized trucks (such as the one John White illustrated from one of the last New Haven orders in The American Passenger Car v.2).
I am still not quite certain how the beam-equalized trucks under the NYC jet RDC ran adequately for 183 safe mph, without a great deal of stuff being done to them. Or how one gets the GSC trucks under the Metroliners to run reliably at anticipated speeds without knocking track mechanics like crazy. (Or why the first-generation Waggon Union trucks on Superliners had so many weird issues...)
The shock absorber of Waggon Union truck was directly placed above the axle box, together with a one coil spring to form the primary suspension. Compare to other product from German like GP-200 provided to PRC, the Waggon Union truck looks really insubstantial.
GP-200
Photographs of models are more readily obtained today. They may not always be accurate or show a particular time period.
The Mistral car does show one of the derivatives of the Milwaukee bogies as discussed. This is one of the earlier "Mistral 1956" cars wheras I was referring to the later "Mistral 1969" cars that I had travelled on in 1974. I think the basic design of truck was the same, although the later cars were allowed 200 km/h while the earlier cars were limited to 160 km/h. Both types were air conditioned. I travelled from Strasbourg to Paris on a TEE which had both PBA 1964 and Mistral 1956 cars owing to heavy traffic. The PBA 1964 cars were generally similar to the Mistral 1969 cars. We ended up in a non -TEE car, a stainless steel A9 fitted with pressure ventilation (and a thin red stripe above the windows). I took advantage of the trip to walk through the train and compare the different accommodation provided.
I don't recall any problems with riding at any speed with the Milwaukee derived bogies, although the French track was pretty good on those routes that allowed 200km/h.
Indeed the VSOE has changed the bogies, from the Pennsylvania type to a design seen on the SNCF Corail cars and the Eurofima standard UIC-Z cars. I think the models above represent cars owned by the Italian railways after the CIWL fleet was split up between the state railways.
Jones1945I guess if it was because the older design unable to provide a better ride quality at high speed!
It's interesting to compare priorities in the current high-speed trucks that stress reduction of unsprung mass, and the last generations of outside-spring-hanger equalized trucks (such as the one John White illustrated from one of the last New Haven orders in The American Passenger Car v.2).
M636C The Milwaukee and Carl Nystrom in particular did a lot of interesting work on high speed trucks. The later design attached the bearings to what had been the equalising beam and removed the axlebox guides. The lower assembly was located by traction rods. This was thought very highly of in France where it was known as the "Milwaukee" bogie. Developments of this truck were used on the Mistral and Capitole trains which were regularly run at 125 miles an hour. Having tried these trains and the TGV sets at slightly higher speeds, I'd go with a slower journey on the much more comfortable and well equipped conventional trains. It was like comparing a ride in a Bentley with a very fast bus. Peter
The Milwaukee and Carl Nystrom in particular did a lot of interesting work on high speed trucks. The later design attached the bearings to what had been the equalising beam and removed the axlebox guides. The lower assembly was located by traction rods. This was thought very highly of in France where it was known as the "Milwaukee" bogie.
Developments of this truck were used on the Mistral and Capitole trains which were regularly run at 125 miles an hour. Having tried these trains and the TGV sets at slightly higher speeds, I'd go with a slower journey on the much more comfortable and well equipped conventional trains. It was like comparing a ride in a Bentley with a very fast bus.
Venice-Simplon Orient Express also changed their cars bogie/truck as early as 2007. If the Broadway Limited of PRR could offer such high level of service like the Orient Express, the completeion between PRR, NYC and B&O would be more splendid.
Well, I can now see the YZ 21.
To return to the Chinese standard trucks:
It appears that the 202 had a heavy duty version , the 205.
A modified version appeared as the types 206 and 207. This had longer travel secondary coil srings and longer swing arms. To acheive this, the truck frame was notched at the bolster to allow the bolster to project over and beyond the frame, with the swing hangers attached to brackets on the outside of the frame. Of course the notches in the frame were a weakness and a source of fatigue failure.
So a modified version, types 208 and 209 was developed. This retained the original frame shape of the 202 and 205, but had a complex bolster shape that projected under the frame but joggled up to above the frame top to allow the use of the long travel bolster springs and long externally attached swing links.
As at 1980, none of these trucks had external dampers on the primary suspension. I guess air secondary suspension was added to the 209 version used on the 25K cars.
M636C Jones1945 A YZ21 (Built in 1953 to 60), the original truck reminds me off PRR 2DP5 truck. I don't see the photo of the YZ 21. Could you check the link? The YZ 21 is a development of the South Manchurian standard passenger cars. The truck design is known as Type 101 in the Chinese system and appears to be a direct copy of a 1920s era USA two axle passenger car truck. Incidentally, this type of truck is known as the "Pennsylvania" type in France. Variations were used on Wagon Lits sleeping and dining cars, including most of those on the Venice Simplon Orient Express today. Peter
Jones1945 A YZ21 (Built in 1953 to 60), the original truck reminds me off PRR 2DP5 truck.
A YZ21 (Built in 1953 to 60), the original truck reminds me off PRR 2DP5 truck.
I don't see the photo of the YZ 21. Could you check the link?
The YZ 21 is a development of the South Manchurian standard passenger cars. The truck design is known as Type 101 in the Chinese system and appears to be a direct copy of a 1920s era USA two axle passenger car truck. Incidentally, this type of truck is known as the "Pennsylvania" type in France. Variations were used on Wagon Lits sleeping and dining cars, including most of those on the Venice Simplon Orient Express today.
I've pulled out a book I picked up in China in August 1980. This is basically a Chinese version of the "Carbuilder's Cyclopedia" and provides a lot of detail on every aspect of freight and passenger rollingstock.
The truck under the early 25 series coaches was type KZ2. This is most easily described as the equivalent of the familiar light weight truck under the Amfleet cars, except that it has outside frames and bearings. The primary suspension was not, as I recalled swing arms and coils, but rubber pads in compression inside cylindrical guides. These are offset, with the outer pads above the axle centre and the inner pads below the axle centre. The secondary suspension is air bags spaced widely outside the wheels. Traction rods are provided between the bolster and the frame, but a conventional pivot centre is shown between the truck frame and the bolster. The wheels are 840mm diameter and the wheelbase is 2200mm.
Considerable detail is provided on the standard trucks used on the Type 22 vehicles.
The first type is the 201, generally similar to the more common 202 but fitted with full elliptic secondary springing rather than the coils with damper on the 202.
The 201 dates from 1956 and was used on the oldest RW 22 (First class sleeping) cars, being replaced by 202s on later production. The pedestal primary suspension seems to be based on Swiss Schlieren designs from the mid 1930s. The type 201 had twin self aligning spherical roller bearings in each axlebox (like those made by SKF) The bolster swing hangers were located inside the truck frames.
The 202 had the swing hangers moved outward to below the truck frames, and some additional friction damping was provided inside the primary coil spring nests. As mentioned, secondary suspension was provided with coil nests and a hydraulic damper in place of the full elliptic springing. The 202 was used on YZ 22 and YW 22 cars (economy sitting and sleeping), RZ 22 and RW 22 (First sitting and sleeping). The heavier dining cars (CA 23), baggage cars (XL 22) and TPOs (UZ 22) used the type 205 truck (of which no details are given).
(to be continued) Peter
Overmod ......There's a problem in the design shown here, which is there is very little inherent lateral stability (it can even be metastability) furnished by the bag, which gives nasty little lateral wandering motion if the track is not well lined and surfaced or if the wheels or railhead wear in certain ways. This was a particular issue with early Amfleet cars, complicated dreadfully by the motion inducing creaking and 'giggling' in some of the interior plastic pieces. In those days before noise-cancelling headphones and reasonable portable entertainment systems, that could make your ride unpleasant. Not as unpleasant as encountering early sections laid with concrete ties, of course; that felt like high-speed derailment. (And yes, I'm familiar with what high-speed derailment feels like...)
......There's a problem in the design shown here, which is there is very little inherent lateral stability (it can even be metastability) furnished by the bag, which gives nasty little lateral wandering motion if the track is not well lined and surfaced or if the wheels or railhead wear in certain ways. This was a particular issue with early Amfleet cars, complicated dreadfully by the motion inducing creaking and 'giggling' in some of the interior plastic pieces. In those days before noise-cancelling headphones and reasonable portable entertainment systems, that could make your ride unpleasant. Not as unpleasant as encountering early sections laid with concrete ties, of course; that felt like high-speed derailment. (And yes, I'm familiar with what high-speed derailment feels like...)
I remember when the first general HSR were not introduced between the border of Hong Kong and Guangzhou aka Canton, when the Railroad of China was one of the military department, DF4B was used to haul SYZ25B Double Decker which used a similar truck with suspension air bag (209PK Truck), (Translated by Google from Chinese: 209PK bogie (P stands for disc brake; K stands for air spring), equipped with labyrinth axle box, elastic positioning sleeve and positioning box positioning device; lateral oil pressure shock absorber is installed between the upper part of the bolster and the frame. The second spring is an air spring to adapt to the large change in the weight of the double-layer vehicle.) It was around early 90s I had a chance to ride on one of it from Shenzhen (City next to Hong Kong) to Guangzhou, the maximum speed was only 75mph, but the ride quality was so far so good, maybe the speed was not very fast and the train was full, when crossing switches passengers can clearly hear and feel the vibration and it was quite shaky at speed, but it was far from uncomfortable.
And yes, I'm familiar with what high-speed derailment feels like...)
Care to enlighten us?
Jones1945202 Series Bogie, a 1958 Design, and 206:
I will let Peter comment more thoroughly as he's a real expert here. But I would note from the pictures that the 206 represents an implementation of many of the 'revealed wisdom' design features applied to what looks like very much the same basic truck architecture of the 202.
Let's look: (1) radius rods with elastomer bushings from the bolster to the carbody; (2) individual hydraulic dampers of reasonable size on the flexi-float axleboxes, perhaps 'one per end' instead of just one per axle as on the EMD dash-2 trucks; implementation of the air bag in place of springs in an outside swing hanger.
Air bags have comparatively little advantage over properly-specified 'spring nests' in OSH trucks; they have no inherent spring-rate characteristic and they can be motorized to equalize ride height from light to heavy loading so there isn't a problem with platform-edge mismatch on Continental platforms. There's a problem in the design shown here, which is there is very little inherent lateral stability (it can even be metastability) furnished by the bag, which gives nasty little lateral wandering motion if the track is not well lined and surfaced or if the wheels or railhead wear in certain ways. This was a particular issue with early Amfleet cars, complicated dreadfully by the motion inducing creaking and 'giggling' in some of the interior plastic pieces. In those days before noise-cancelling headphones and reasonable portable entertainment systems, that could make your ride unpleasant. Not as unpleasant as encountering early sections laid with concrete ties, of course; that felt like high-speed derailment. (And yes, I'm familiar with what high-speed derailment feels like...)
M636C That train is made up of the 25 series cars I used in 1980. The generator car is the second vehicle behind the repainted 22 series mail van. The paint on the mail van never did match the newer cars... Peter
Trains from a communist country run in a capatialist region regularly, only in Hong Kong (Now a Special Administrative Region of PRC). The Engine DF3 " was a copy of the Soviet 2D100 design, itself a copy of the Fairbanks Morse 38D8 ¾. (Wiki) " A single unit DF3 can pull a 18-car consist at 45mph, quite impressive for a developing country.
M636C 51 was built by Clyde Engineering in Sydney Australia, as were 52-55. 51 remains in Hong Kong in their railway museum, while the other four returned to Australia and worked for a few more years. All of them were fitted with a more compact muffler than the 55 gallon drums used in that photo. The drums worked, however.... I think some of the G16s came from GMD Canada. Locomotives built in Australia or Canada could be substantially paid for with Sterling funds, only the equipment built in the USA needing to be purchased with US Dollars. 51 and 52 had the D15 generator, standard on the G8, but these were the only two G12s with the D15, all the others all having the larger D12 (or D22 or D32). So those two had a rating of 1125 HP, while the others had 1310 HP. That probably lowered the price for the first two. Peter
51 was built by Clyde Engineering in Sydney Australia, as were 52-55.
51 remains in Hong Kong in their railway museum, while the other four returned to Australia and worked for a few more years. All of them were fitted with a more compact muffler than the 55 gallon drums used in that photo. The drums worked, however....
I think some of the G16s came from GMD Canada. Locomotives built in Australia or Canada could be substantially paid for with Sterling funds, only the equipment built in the USA needing to be purchased with US Dollars.
51 and 52 had the D15 generator, standard on the G8, but these were the only two G12s with the D15, all the others all having the larger D12 (or D22 or D32). So those two had a rating of 1125 HP, while the others had 1310 HP. That probably lowered the price for the first two.
Thank you very much for your informative response, Peter. I am still trying to find a pic of the Sulzer engine diesel electric railcar set.
(Edit: I found it here: https://www.derbysulzers.com/manchuria.html )
DerbySulzers seems to have good information.
The Wikipedia site on the SMR based on Japanese sources suggests that four of six of the power cars were Sulzer powered, while other sources suggest only two had Sulzer engines. Wikipedia suggest the engine was a vee-type but Sulzer's own records state that it was an inline six. At least two units had Niigata diesel engines, possibly four.
The Wikipedia entry suggests the trains were used after the war around Fushun. That is true, but they had been converted to overhead electric power, the diesel units having long been abandoned. They ran as six car sets with a former driving trailer at each end. It is possible they only used the two traction motors on the driving car, originally powered by the diesel. I saw these operating at Fushun in 1980.
M636C ......On the wikipedia site, the then DB3 is illustrated on a passenger train. These were the trailer cars for one of the Sulzer engined diesel electric railcar set, and I'm sure that Overmod would be pleased to know that there was a driving cab on the end trailer car (and a pair of traction motors) giving potential for push pull operation once you worked out what you would try to do in the remote cab (like operate the brakes). Peter
......On the wikipedia site, the then DB3 is illustrated on a passenger train. These were the trailer cars for one of the Sulzer engined diesel electric railcar set, and I'm sure that Overmod would be pleased to know that there was a driving cab on the end trailer car (and a pair of traction motors) giving potential for push pull operation once you worked out what you would try to do in the remote cab (like operate the brakes).
By the way, I apologize for all the typos in my pervious post! )
A railcar of SMR built by Baldwin. Source: 『満洲鉄道写真集』
Jones1945 Overmod Wouldn't a couple of these run in push/pull with an LD1 be an interesting thing? Haha I know why you mention LD1, Overmod That would be a perfect match. BR 60 Lübeck-Büchener EisenbahnSouth Manchuria Railway ダブサ500 / China Railway LD1
Overmod Wouldn't a couple of these run in push/pull with an LD1 be an interesting thing?
Wouldn't a couple of these run in push/pull with an LD1 be an interesting thing?
Haha I know why you mention LD1, Overmod That would be a perfect match. BR 60 Lübeck-Büchener EisenbahnSouth Manchuria Railway ダブサ500 / China Railway LD1
While they were similar in external appearance, LBE 1 to 3 were purpose designed commuter locomotives with 1600 mm driving wheels (5'3") rather than the 2000 mm (6'7") of the SMR DB3, Chinese LD1.
In fact the SMR locomotive resembles most closely a 4-4-2T designed by Henschel which was superseded by the class 61 with it 2300 mm driving wheels. They weren't that alike, the Henschel proposal having inside cylinders to reduce the nosing effect with the short rigid wheelbase. Extraordinarily enough, a SINGLE cylinder version of the 4-4-2T was proposed. How they expected that to work isn't clear, but the drawing shows two piston valves, possibly one for inlet and one for exhaust. But in size and external appearance the LD1 looked more like the German 4-4-2T than anything else.
On the wikipedia site, the then DB3 is illustrated on a passenger train. These were the trailer cars for one of the Sulzer engined diesel electric railcar set, and I'm sure that Overmod would be pleased to know that there was a driving cab on the end trailer car (and a pair of traction motors) giving potential for push pull operation once you worked out what you would try to do in the remote cab (like operate the brakes).
M636C In 1980, the through train stopped at the border with Kowloon, so we rode the KCR suburbans out to Lo Wu. My train had two Australian built EMDs 52 (a G12) and 59 (the only true G16 buit in Australia). The train we caught from Lo Wu to Guangzhou consisted of early type 25 cars, fully air conditioned with rotating and reclining seats, and they were white with a blue window band. Power for the A/C came from a generator van behind the locomotive, which I think was a DF3, an 1800 HP Fairbanks Morse based on the Soviet TE3. These Type 25s had modern trucks with swing arm primary suspension and air bag secondary suspension, looking very much Japanese in origin, but with Chinese casting marks. Nearly every air conditioned car since has been a 25 with some letter subscript. Peter
In 1980, the through train stopped at the border with Kowloon, so we rode the KCR suburbans out to Lo Wu. My train had two Australian built EMDs 52 (a G12) and 59 (the only true G16 buit in Australia).
The train we caught from Lo Wu to Guangzhou consisted of early type 25 cars, fully air conditioned with rotating and reclining seats, and they were white with a blue window band. Power for the A/C came from a generator van behind the locomotive, which I think was a DF3, an 1800 HP Fairbanks Morse based on the Soviet TE3. These Type 25s had modern trucks with swing arm primary suspension and air bag secondary suspension, looking very much Japanese in origin, but with Chinese casting marks.
Nearly every air conditioned car since has been a 25 with some letter subscript.
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