Brightness of headlight in the 1930s to 1950s

[Jones1945]

Sorry for my late reply, Mr. Overmod, and Wayne. I just found myself missed the party of Canada Day but glad to see you guys had a nice time with Vince and our forumer! Looking forward to the next party hosted by you guys. 

[Flintlock76]

Nobody tells me anything.

If I'd known there was going to be some opera in this thread I'd have prepared myself a wine and cheese platter!  

[Overmod]

My Lord, Giulio Cesare in Egitto, the thing that made Bubbles Silverman an opera star.  Hard to believe it was almost unknown before 1977 ... which seems just yesterday.

[Jones1945]

Overmod

That's part of the (very creepy) lyrics to the Dead or Alive song from the Eighties.  Pete Burns said "the record company said it was awful. It was unanimous – it was awful, it was rubbish."  And after all these years ... I find I still agree.

Flo Rida and Ke$ha dug it up in 2009 and succeeded in making it creepy in a decided other direction ... but I digress...

I bet you were holding your laugh when typing the reply, Mr. Overmod. If my silly joke could create the same effect as "throwing out a minnow to catch a whale", I think it worth our effort to make this discussion even more delightful. Though I also don't want our reader to search for the newer and creepier "direction" of that song, there are too many beautiful things waiting for us to explore! My friend was actually singing the first section of my favorite aria (at the time) "Piangerò la sorte mia" from the "Giulio Cesare" by G.F Handel. The echo was so strong in the cave but there was nobody there until she started singing. 

 

Overmod

Woodlites as ditch lights for the S1 would be good indeed ... from the outside.  You should remember that Woodlites as actual lights were unbelievably sucky, almost poster children for mandatory adoption of sealed-beams later in the Thirties that held up real, functional headlight adoption in the United States for decades.  In the S1 era you'd be better off adapting the Woodlites as markers: they would still be dim, but possibly adequate.  Nowadays you could cram halogens or diodes in there ... but the polished case makes cooling them an iffy thing, so you better adapt CPU-cooling heat sink tech from the computer industry with the heat-exchange coolant tubes going through the mounting.  Personally I'd prefer the recessed XKE-like covers as used on the Baureihe 05s ... if you can implement them so as not to look either walleyed or cross-eyed, which can be a bit of a problem.

No disagreement here, Mr. Overmod. That is why I used the term "decoration". I am not sure if there was a larger model of the Woodlites which could be installed on the S1, if Raymond Loewy had this idea, I believe he would have created a tailor-made by himself or requested the Woodlites to do it. I think the main single headlight was the focus and the most important feature of the S1's front end design, therefore, the size of other decorative "ditch lights" couldn't steal its thunder, but large enough to put the heat sink or mini fans for cooling. Speaking of the headlights on the XKE, the design reminds me of the "lower headlights" on the 1938 Phantom Corsair, my dream car!

 

Overmod

...I can only imagine the added horror that a nonlinear sweep would add to this sight picture...

I love James Whale's arts and productions. Almost everything single film frame of his movies, shown the adhere to the standard of perfection. I believe he would have done even better in the era of the color motion picture when he could have played with the color temperature and use of different kinds of lights for stage production and photography.  

Overmod

... of course, you could go MUCH too far in the other direction, elevating the cab windows; take the Great Northern W-1 as an example and imagine tunnels coming at you ... now flickeringly lit like something out of a James Whale movie.  After a while of that I wouldn't be surprised to be ducking all night in my sleep...

"Before he ducked under the control panel, he saw a flickering image of a well-dressed lady holding her child's hand, standing so close to the track that he thought the engine was gonna run them over. He woke up in a panic, only to find him ducking all night in his sleep. But when he tried to get out of bed, he noted he was sleeping in his former house, the house that he built for his ex-wife who left him for another man.

He saw the clock on the wall, gifted by his colleague, also his best friend who was an engineer he worked with and lost his life in WWII, reminded him the story of the lady and her child disappeared in the forest 20 years ago. Suddenly, he realized that he was dreaming inside another dream, but everything around him looked unbelievably realistic.

He tried to wake up and started panicking...... He saw the fireplace turning into a locomotive firebox which triggered his memories of working as a fireman. He put his hand inside the opened firebox, the flame, the heat, and the pain, melted his dream like a melting-film which finally took him back to reality......"  

 

[Overmod]

Jones1945

This reminds me of a nursery rhyme which my friend once sang to me at Aubeterre-sur-Dronne, the lyric is "You spin me right round, baby, right round, like a record baby, right round round round......" if I remember correctly.

That's part of the (very creepy) lyrics to the Dead or Alive song from the Eighties.  Pete Burns said "the record company said it was awful. It was unanimous – it was awful, it was rubbish."  And after all these years ... I find I still agree.

Flo Rida and Ke$ha dug it up in 2009 and succeeded in making it creepy in a decided other direction ... but I digress.

Woodlites as ditch lights for the S1 would be good indeed ... from the outside.  You should remember that Woodlites as actual lights were unbelievably sucky, almost poster children for mandatory adoption of sealed-beams later in the Thirties that held up real, functional headlight adoption in the United States for decades.  In the S1 era you'd be better off adapting the Woodlites as markers: they would still be dim, but possibly adequate.  Nowadays you could cram halogens or diodes in there ... but the polished case makes cooling them an iffy thing, so you better adapt CPU-cooling heat sink tech from the computer industry with the heat-exchange coolant tubes going through the mounting.  Personally I'd prefer the recessed XKE-like covers as used on the Baureihe 05s ... if you can implement them so as not to look either walleyed or cross-eyed, which can be a bit of a problem.

Note the discussion about 'preferred' pattern for the Mars 300/301 having most of the weight in the centerline, but 'dipping' in the corners to give ditchlight effect via persistence of vision with the single 93cpm beam.  That would be interesting to see from a cab, being perhaps less hypnotic in its effect.

You all may remember that one of the reasons to abandon the 'shovelnose' was the "highway hypnosis" that endless onrushing ties in the headlight glare would induce in enginemen.  I can only imagine the added horror that a nonlinear sweep would add to this sight picture...

... of course, you could go MUCH too far in the other direction, elevating the cab windows; take the Great Northern W-1 as an example and imagine tunnels coming at you ... now flickeringly lit like something out of a James Whale movie.  After a while of that I wouldn't be surprised to be ducking all night in my sleep...

[Jones1945]

OH MY! Thanks a lot for the story and the links, NDG and Overmod. This is like a party of spinning lights!

Overmod

...BUT I can see that if this were the ONLY good illumination forward, you'd easily wind up trying to follow the bright spot around and around and ar.......

This reminds me of a nursery rhyme which my friend once sang to me at Aubeterre-sur-Dronne, the lyric is "You spin me right round, baby, right round, like a record baby, right round round round......" if I remember correctly. By the way, I did feel dizzy when I was looking the spinning light from the YouTube video.

Overmod

Useful page on Gyralights here..  Note the links to Beam Patterns and to the patent drawings; they work. 

That is a very informative website about the Gyralights! 

I am still searching for the model of the headlights used on the Dreyfuss Hudsons and PRR S1. I think adding some Woodlite headlamps on the S1 for decoration might look cool... gonna photoshop some pics to see how it would have looked. 

 

[Overmod]

NDG

Poor taste railfans would all rotate their heads when a RDC went by...

Oh, that's evil!

KCS at one time ran a variant of Gyralite which simply had a steady white rotary beam.  This was remarkably good at lighting up details in the 'perimeter view' via persistence of vision that wouldn't have been seen otherwise unless floodlit at millions of candlepower.  I still consider ditchlighting a poor substitute.  BUT I can see that if this were the ONLY good illumination forward, you'd easily wind up trying to follow the bright spot around and around and ar.......

Useful page on Gyralights here..  Note the links to Beam Patterns and to the patent drawings; they work. 

 

[NDG]

 

Gyralights.

 

CPR RDCs had portable Gyralites mounted on their centre doors.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_London/9050.jpg

 

Which projected a rotating beam of light.

 

The light could rotate clockwise, counterclockwise or be stationary.

 

Very hypnotic from cab at night, and annoying.

 

Poor taste railfans would all rotate their heads when a RDC went by alluding to urban legend of retired CPR Passenger Engineers in the Old Folks Homes rotating their heads in unison and talking about Indexed Pensions, Doubling Out and their Seniority, then collapsing in Mirth at the boundary fence until a Railway Constable arrived in his Jeep.

 

Thank You.

[Jones1945]

Posted by Daniel C Carroll Jr. on Facebook:

A headlight cover used on the Southern Pacific Class SP 4-10-2 during WWII.

Posted by ‎Stephen Phillips on Facebook:

 

 "CNR No.5115, class J-4-d, MLW 1919, at an unknown location in British Columbia … in 1948 … note the huge headlight, called a "dirigible" by the crews …. an air piston under the headlight could swing the beam up to 20 degrees to left and right of center..dirigible headlights first appeared in 1945 on the CNR... Jim Pope photograph … Jan.2005 Branchline magazine ..."

 Eric James: "I could be mistaken, but I believe engines equipped with these headlights regularly worked the Fraser Canyon."

 

[wjstix]

I suspect the decision on whether to use Mars lights or not had to do with how many remote grade crossings the railroad had. A Midwestern railroad running through small town/rural areas may have thought the extra warning the Mars lights gave made them worth having - especially when buying new streamlined, higher speed passenger equipment -  where an Eastern railroad with a busy mainline serving mainly urban areas may have had fewer grade crossings (because the road passed over or under the tracks to avoid congestion) or hadn't had problems with the crossings they had.

[Jones1945]

That is a sweet story, Balt. I remember when I was a kid, my father usually took me to take a tram ride after dinner. One of the things I concern the most is how bright was the headlight. At the time I didn't have the concept of "to be seen" type of headlight of the tram car. My father and I usually took the double-deck tram at the terminal where we can choose where to sit. I seat in the front roll and tried to observe how the 60W incandescent bulbs headlight illuminates the object in front of it. Silly me! 

[BaltACD]

My family's first trip to Florida was on the ACL's East Coast Champion - I can remember standing in the vestibule with my Dad, we had the Dutch Door open and were watching the progress of our train - as the curves moved toward our side of the train you could see the locomotive's Mars Light gyrating from side to side and up and down.

[Jones1945]

Thank you for clarifying that, rcdrye. No wonder some Class I of the Northeast never or seldom had an engine equipped with Mar lights or extra lamps. 

One of a kind of PRR, the extra lamp was removed later: 

Source: rrmuseumpa internet archive.

Flintlock76

Anyone care for a Mars light demonstration?

Here's two, although these aren't railroad models, they're from fire engines, but I'm sure they're not all that different.

Yes! This is another video showing Mars light in use. I may feel dizzy if I am the engineer...

Another pic of CNW Class H-1: 

[Flintlock76]

Anyone care for a Mars light demonstration?

Here's two, although these aren't railroad models, they're from fire engines, but I'm sure they're not all that different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXp7dKqbY3o  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkLjkgRf_Jw  

Don't you love that "The Light From Mars" label on the first one?

 

[rcdrye]

I think the decision to use or not use Mars lights was pretty much a railroad-by-railroad decision, and had little or nothing to do with regulation.  Atlantic Coast Line and RF&P both used Mars lights on at least some of their E-units.  NKP's PA1 fleet had them as well, running side by side with NYC across Ohio, PA and New York.

[Jones1945]

This engine caught my attention when I was browsing some brass train website: CNW Class H-1. That massive extra headlight above the smokebox door was probably a huge red light, but it could be the same type of lamp used on the CNW 400. 

 

https://www.railarchive.net/randomsteam/cnw3026.htm

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3580569

 

[Miningman]

rcdrye-- Why were they banned from certain areas??

[Jones1945]

wjstix

 

I think a simpler explanation as to why only the CNW and Milwaukee used Mars lights on steam engines serving the Twin Cities had to do with the Mars light coming out about the same time as streamlined passenger diesel. CNW and Milwaukee chose to run their top trains with steam, so added Mars lights to them. Other railroads like the Burlington and Rock Island were already using diesels by then - with Mars lights.

 

Thanks! I note some railroads from the Northeast like NYCentral, B&O and Pennsy never install Mars lights on their new diesels, so I wonder if there was a special need or regulation for mid-west railroads like CNW and MILW to install those Mar lights? Thanks a lot.

[rcdrye]

SP started removing the "packages" from the trailing ends of units around 1972.  At least some of the units in the Commute pool (SDP45s, GP9Es, GP40P-2s and a pair of SD9Es) kept them until 1982 or so.  Many of the "E" upgrades got the simplified package with a pair of sealed-beam headlights, and a combo two-lens mars light above.  Some of the dual-control GP9s retained the full package on both ends, though they lost their red "wings" on the long hood in the GP9E rebuild.

Ohio Brass had a headlight that North Shore used for Merchandise Despatch trains the had a very bright headlight and two "bullseye" bulbs, intended for use on the Chicago L.  After a couple of test runs with newly rebuilt Silverliners in 1950 they were banned from the L south of Montrose Avenue, where the MD trains had previously ended their runs.

[wjstix]

Jones1945

Thank you for your respond. Before the renowned Twin Cities 400 being dieselized, there un-streamlined locomotive, quote from wiki “The steam locomotives were upgraded to feature a 45° lamp on top of the boiler just ahead of the smokestack. These lights were intended to announce the approach of the train and could be seen for a great distance in rural areas. In 1937, one locomotive was equipped with a prototype Mars light, the first ever put into use.”

I don’t know why only CNW and MILW, served on similar market or route had this special treatment. I guess It was because the train need to go through a lot of county side and smaller communities thus the engine needed to install more headlights for safety measure.

 

 

Mars lights were added because as the streamliner era started, passenger train speeds increased considerably. It was thought the Mars light (and using airhorns instead of whistles - even on steam engines) would give better warning to motorists at grade crossings.

 

I think a simpler explanation as to why only the CNW and Milwaukee used Mars lights on steam engines serving the Twin Cities had to do with the Mars light coming out about the same time as streamlined passenger diesels. CNW and Milwaukee chose to run their top trains with steam, so added Mars lights to them. Other railroads like the Burlington and Rock Island were already using diesels by then - with Mars lights.

[Jones1945]

( Chicago & North Western Railway: A Brief History of the Chicago and North Western Line)

CNW Twin Cities 400 powered by class E-2-A #2908( 79-inch disc drivers) with an additional large headlight ahead of the smokestack. The light was originally 45° pointed upward, intended to announce the approach of the train and could be seen for a great distance in rural areas. TE of CNW E-2-A class was 45,800lbs, they were claimed to be one of the fastest steam engines in 1935. 

[erikem]

Overmod

 

erikem

His book made no mention of removal due to ICC regulations, so my guess is that the UP did so on their own volition.

 

I bring up the point because it was painfully clear that the later experiments on SP with high-visibility lights of various kinds were terminated 'with extreme prejudice' thanks to the FRA mandating that any light, no matter how superfluous to nominal CFR requirements, had to be kept in perfect working order.

My understanding was tha the vertical headlight removal was done prior to WW2. Espee's "pouring on the lights" was going on until at least the late 1960's.

OTOH, I remember getting home well more than an hour late on evening due to a failure of the ditch lights on the Amtrak train taking from Irvine to Solana Beach. Solution was coupling our train to the later train just south of San Juan Capistrano.

Heck, even the FAA allows airliners to fly with a certai number of systems non-functioning...

[Overmod]

erikem

His book made no mention of removal due to ICC regulations, so my guess is that the UP did so on their own volition.

I bring up the point because it was painfully clear that the later experiments on SP with high-visibility lights of various kinds were terminated 'with extreme prejudice' thanks to the FRA mandating that any light, no matter how superfluous to nominal CFR requirements, had to be kept in perfect working order. 

The installation of Mars lights shortly thereafter comes across as the next step in experimentation on improving visibility to the motorists at grade crossings.

Yes, but there comes fairly quickly the idea, on UP as on other roads, of using the red Mars light strictly as a signal to facing trains, not as optical grade-crossing warning.  Whether that started as an 'excuse' to put red lenses on anticollision warning lights that didn't produce the desired degree of warning, I can't say.

[Jones1945]

Railway Age, 1948

This was my first post on Classic Trains forum. With the helps of our forum members and all the infomation provided by you guys; including important key words for seaching things on the internet , I can study more topic in depth from the publishment avalible on the web. Thank you everyone! 

[Jones1945]

UP  G.M. M-10003 to M-10006 (best looking early diesel imo)  and CB&Q Zephyr 9900 added extra headling/Mar lights above the driving cab

[erikem]

Overmod

Union Pacific had vertical headlights on some of the early Streamliners, the idea being similar to the angled headlights --  the projected fast-moving searchlight beam supposedly acting like spotlights at a Hollywood premiere to arrest the attention of nearby motorists and get them to Recognize High-Speed Death Is Near while still far away from crossings.

I have never seen a reference that said that it worked as expected, on any road that tried them.  To my knowledge all were removed or disabled early; whether or not this was due to ICC/FRA regulations requiring them to work all the time if installed I do not know.

Kratville's book on the UP Streamliners stated that the vertical lighs did not work as well as expected and thus were not repeated after the first few units. His book made no mention of removal due to ICC regulations, so my guess is that the UP did so on their own volition. His book did state that management was concerned about grade crossing accidents, hence that's why the vertical lights were installed in thefirst place. The installation of Mars lights shortly thereafter comes across as the next step in experimentation on improving visibility to the motorists at grade crossings.

[Jones1945]

Miningman

......One of the reporting sentences goes on to say that,( I think it was the S1, but someone here will recall correctly), that the main rod had let loose and flayed the entire side of the locomotive and here it was waiting for the bitter end. That the entire post-war fleet of duplex drive and experimental locomotives were failures, now merely stored here and the era was over......

This is really interesting, Miningman, since I have read a similar story from a post on Facebook (please don't laugh at me) about the incident you mentioned. I tried to find the post again, but it wasn’t there anymore. 

I can’t remember the detail, but it said one day when S1 or T1 was running at 100mph, one of the main rod loosed and destroyed part of the skirting and the engineer side windows, the “big engine” was lifted up a little by the loosed rod which was slammed into the ground. The crew applied emergency brake and the train stopped without derailment. The engine was towed aside and stayed there for a month…… something like that. The story sounds familiar, isn’t it?

 

I have at least 4 books and 3 articles about Pennsy steam power but none of them mentioned such accident, even the author who gave the harshest comment to S1 or T1 didn't mention such story or incident. I went through the PRR Chronology from 1936 to 1948 many times, no such incident was recorded as well. 

24-wheel Twin Unit Dining Car designed for the new Trail Blazer in 1939.

[Jones1945]

Overmod

......Union Pacific had vertical headlights on some of the early Streamliners, the idea being similar to the angled headlights --  the projected fast-moving searchlight beam supposedly acting like spotlights at a Hollywood premiere to arrest the attention of nearby motorists and get them to Recognize High-Speed Death Is Near while still far away from crossings.

Yes, the UP GE steam turbine locomotive had such vertical headlights on the roof of the driver cab, a very strange design in my book.

 

Overmod

......You do know there is a painting of the 'critical moment' when the main pin failed -- and it's linked in some posts on these forums!

Yes, this drawing is still in my MILW pics folder . IIRC NYC's Super Hudson and MILW F7s used  Baker Valve Gear and Walschaerts Valve Gear respectively. I cannot remember the details, but the official explanation of this incident was “engine lubrication system failure” ……something like that, but I suspect it was caused by speeding. TE of both Hudson type from NYC and MILW was quite low, compared to PRR K4s, MILW or many people claimed that their F7s can go beyond 120mph but NYC only claimed 95mph. Why and how?

[Miningman]

Nice summary, in the spirit of things a-la Monty Python. Thanks.

Perhaps one day real jocularity will return. 

I recall an issue of 'Trains' featuring a page with an Ariel photo of Crestline and the commentary running North-South column style alongside the picture outlining what it is we actually see. At first glance it appears all is well, lots of steam about but upon further investigation it is revealed that we are seeing dead and whitelined locomotives. I cannot remember the particulars exactly but I do recall the S1 being there, the 'Big Engine', I think perhaps the S2, some T1's , perhaps Q2's. One of the reporting sentences goes on to say that,( I think it was the S1, but someone here will recall correctly), that the main rod had let loose and flayed the entire side of the locomotive and here it was waiting for the bitter end. That the entire post war fleet of duplex drive and experimental locomotives were failures, now merely stored here and the era was over. 

I have the all time Trains issue Disc but will have to wait until I get back to my 'real' computer in the classroom and at my desk in my office. Someone can beat me to the punch. I'm just not certain which locomotive it was that had the flayed severely damaged side.