daveklepper But in that case wasn't he still the head brakeman as a title, not baggageman?
But in that case wasn't he still the head brakeman as a title, not baggageman?
His exact title may have depended upon the road he worked for?
Remember that the rear end brakeman also had flagging responsibilties when flagging was necessary--and on passenger trains he was usually called the flagman.
Johnny
Deggesty MidlandMike Why did the baggageman get a copy of the train orders? Often, on passenger trains the headend brakeman also handled the checked baggage. Thus, the baggageman had the responsibility of lining switches at meeting points.
MidlandMike Why did the baggageman get a copy of the train orders?
Why did the baggageman get a copy of the train orders?
Often, on passenger trains the headend brakeman also handled the checked baggage. Thus, the baggageman had the responsibility of lining switches at meeting points.
BaltACDB&O standard for Train Orders was 3 copies for a Freight Train, 4 copies for a Passenger train.
I don't remember what Dad did at Hatton on the mainline, but Irricana was a branchline station. I know at least two carbon papers were used, so that would be three copies. Mixed trains got one for the engineer, conductor and one for the station at least. There were two sizes of hoop available, but the ones meant for a caboose were never used, as being a Division Point(Junction of Langdon and Irricana Subs.) all trains stopped anyway to register.
I can't say I've ever seen a backwards typed copy of a CPR train order, even in a book. Such a thing at mainline stations or terminals could certainly be possible.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
The Southern also used two-sided carbon paper. I have several train orders, given me my trainmen, which have the writing on the back as well as on the front.
jeffhergert AgentKid cx500 If I remember correctly, the carbon paper used when writing train orders was carboned on both sides. Office carbon paper was one sided. The carbon paper we had at Irricana about 1960 was one sided. I remember learning how to put the carbon paper the right way about that time. Bruce The Rock Island depots I used to visit had double sided carbon paper for train orders. The RI (UCOR 1968) made 5 copies of an order for one train. (A copy for the engineer, a second copy for the head brakeman and fireman to read. A copy for the conductor and a copy for the rear brakeman/flagman. Plus one office copy.) With double sided carbons, one was inserted between the 2nd and 3rd copy, and between the 4th and 5th copy. The duplication on the 2nd and 4th copies was on the back of the train order form but could easily be read. About 13 copies of one order (for 3 trains) could be made this way. The operator always had forms ready for the typewriter in groups of 5, 9 and 13. Jeff
AgentKid cx500 If I remember correctly, the carbon paper used when writing train orders was carboned on both sides. Office carbon paper was one sided. The carbon paper we had at Irricana about 1960 was one sided. I remember learning how to put the carbon paper the right way about that time. Bruce
cx500 If I remember correctly, the carbon paper used when writing train orders was carboned on both sides. Office carbon paper was one sided.
The carbon paper we had at Irricana about 1960 was one sided. I remember learning how to put the carbon paper the right way about that time.
The Rock Island depots I used to visit had double sided carbon paper for train orders. The RI (UCOR 1968) made 5 copies of an order for one train. (A copy for the engineer, a second copy for the head brakeman and fireman to read. A copy for the conductor and a copy for the rear brakeman/flagman. Plus one office copy.) With double sided carbons, one was inserted between the 2nd and 3rd copy, and between the 4th and 5th copy. The duplication on the 2nd and 4th copies was on the back of the train order form but could easily be read. About 13 copies of one order (for 3 trains) could be made this way. The operator always had forms ready for the typewriter in groups of 5, 9 and 13.
Jeff
B&O standard for Train Orders was 3 copies for a Freight Train, 4 copies for a Passenger train.
On Freight Trains a copy was delivered to the engineer and conductor with the remaining copy being retained in the office file.
On Passenger Trains a copy was delivered to the engineer, baggageman and conductor with the remaining copy being retained in the office file.
If two trains were addressed at the same point, the Dispatcher would instruct the opeator to 'copy 5 (or 6 if a passenger train was one of the trains)'. Orders were addressed to the most restricted operator first, who would also repeat the order first. Orders were not effective unless the Dispatcher issued a 'Complete with the Dispatchers initials and time'. If communications failed, before complete was recieved 'the order had never been sent'. Dispatchers specified the number of copies to be made when initiating the call. '19 West copy five' etc. 19 orders could be picked up on the fly. 31 orders were more restricive and the train had to be stopped to get them delivered.
Offices where there wasn't a 'billing machine' typewriter available the orders were hand written using a stylus with a thin metal 'plate' used to be the writing surface of the TO Pad so a not to leave a impression on the deeper orders on the TO Pad.
When orders were 'typewritten' everything had to be in All Capital letters - thus the use of 'Billing Machines' that only contained capitals.
B&O used double sided carbons. The active TO Pad would be stuffed with carbons 20 pages deep or more thus the thin metal plate to separate the written from the unwritten copies. Maximum number of copies was 13.
If a 'standing order' was issued ie. to be delivered to All trains - the Dispatcher would initate the call with '19 West copy a bunch'.
In later years some train order offices got Xerox machines and the cabons went away.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It certainly is easier to correct mistakes when working this way--IF you carefully read through what you have written before commiting it to the public.
Want to find out how poor your 'keyboarding' skills are. Use a typewriter!
Firelock must be in heaven or shaking his head ...a whole thread about copiers and copying! This is kind of fun.
Dude- really liked that link to the last manufacturer of carbon paper up here. There has to be a market for it if you are still using it on the Railroads. Some receipt books still have carbon paper as well. It's definitely handy dandy that way.
Agent Kid--love those Irricana stories. In the 50's the President of the CPR would hold up the typed original and the carbon copy to the light and if they did not match up perfectly the poor secretary would have to redo it. You would think the President of the CPR had better things to do than nitpick around the office.
Not quite sure what could replace carbon paper copying as it is used today..it is still very useful in certain applications. As Overmod pointed out there are carbonless options. However...anyone still using a typewriter in a 'real functional' setting, well thats sort of kooky. I do not miss that racket one bit.
I had an electric one in the early eighties that had a memory and could store entire multiple pages and type out a copy on demand with the push of button. I didn't mind that one!
cx500If I remember correctly, the carbon paper used when writing train orders was carboned on both sides. Office carbon paper was one sided.
If I remember correctly, the carbon paper used when writing train orders was carboned on both sides. Office carbon paper was one sided.
There was mention of the mimeograph, whoch had purple ink. A few favoured train order offices (mostly at terminals) had access to them to produce the large quantities of bulletin slow orders that would be used during the month.
I also had the pleasure(?) of using a Gestetner, although I can't offhand remember what for. That was black ink, and produced a much better result.
John
The big innovation here wasn't paperless document processing a la Xerox, it was the invention of carbonless forms, which at a stroke substituted a few mills' worth of chemicals for messy interleaved sheets (most of which were discarded virtually unused) and not incidentally allowed more clean copies to be made at a time in typewriters or impact printers...
jeffhergertBut only a few stations . . . are authorized to duplicate train orders mechancially
That is really getting high tech.
I can still remember Dad talking at the time, and even years later, about how the CPR allowed Dispatchers to use ballpoint pens on trainsheets instead of requiring fountain pens. That change must have happened about 1970 or so.
This article is from a few years ago, but I doubt much has changed. The last Canadian manufacturer of carbon paper:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/news/gta/2013/02/07/copy_this_north_yorks_formmate_is_the_last_supplier_of_carbon_paper_in_canada.html
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Carbon paper? Why I use it in my basement when operating my model railroad and needing to make multiple copies of a train order. I place it between the sheets and then put it in my typewriter.
Yes, I do have a Kodak printer down there. But only a few stations on my modeled portion are authorized to duplicate train orders mechancially.
Carbon paper! Holy smoke, I haven't thought about that stuff in years! The last time I used it was (I think) in college when I was typing a term paper and wanted to keep a copy for myself. Only did it once, trying to erase the mistakes from the original AND the carbon copy was too much.
Hey youngsters, wonder where the term "carbon copy" comes from? Now you know!
And does anyone remember "eraseable bond" typewriter paper? Is it even made anymore?
And let's not forget mimeograph with it's wonderful aroma!
Reminds me, when I started repairing copiers I was in an office trying to get a little more life out of a cranky, worn-out machine. A young woman walked past me saying "Oh, I HATE that thing!" An older woman walked past her and said "Honey, that's because YOU don't remember what mimeograph was like!"
Miningman, I know what you mean about grumpy, surly IT guys. Seems like with a few exceptions they all seem to have come out of the same mold. Maybe they're frustrated that they're stuck "wherever" with us mere mortals instead of working for Bill Gates in "Computer Valhalla?" And of course if there's a problem it's never their network!
On the other hand, our IT guy in our local office was an absolute prince! If you had a problem he couldn't do enough for you to fix it. The only time he'd get annoyed was if you had a problem that was your fault and you tried to BS him. As long as you were honest "Oh man, I screwed up this time!" he wouldn't critisize you or make fun of you he'd just get to work and fix it. Then of course the "powers-that-be" decided to downsize the office and he was let go. The stupid SOB's. They gave him a generous separation package, but still...
Miningmananyone remember carbon paper
Strange you should mention that. Earlier this winter I found a half dozen or so sheets I had found when we were cleaning out an election campaign office I was working at in the early 90's. My nephews were small and I though one day they might be interested in such old technology.
But that day never came, and when I found them while looking for something else, I found out they were probably too dried out to ever work again. I should have put them in a Ziploc bag.
Clearance forms: I remember the pads of them we had at Irricana. You know how preprinted forms would have 19__ in the date section. These forms were designed right at the turn of the 20th Century and they had 1___. I wish we had saved some of those.
Wow...yes of course! Thanks Dude. We still use it in Lab notebooks as well.
Perhaps its one of those manual (primitive) easy things that will never go away.
Miningman Hey anyone remember carbon paper
Hey anyone remember carbon paper
I sure do, we still use it at work. The rules state you have to have multiple copies of clearances and some other authorities, and they have yet to put photocopiers or fax machines in the locomotives.
Yes thank you Firelock. As long as Governments, Lawyers and everything else is still around we will never go paperless. A few hot shot young profs touted their paperless offices and classrooms to disasterous results. Of course when they leave the school or their contract is up over the summer IT comes in and wipes their 'puter clean and then there is bupkis for the next guy. It's so dumb. They do it in the belief they are saving the forests or something and thus think they are cool.
You are right about IT...thats a black hole, information goes in, nothing comes out and those guys are the 'men in black'. No sense of humour either. Yeesh. We have 4 full time plus a Director. They grunt a lot.
I officially complained once at a meeting with the big bosses that those guys could at least say "hello" or "good day". It worked!
Since my laptop talks to the copier I suspect those 2 conspire together, along with IT.
Hey anyone remember carbon paper for typewriters in order to make copies as you typed? At least it's not digital, on line or being recorded as you go.
How it got your name I'm not sure, unless you've got a resident IT person who input it while he was setting up the machine for the different departments. This is a feature a lot of machines have now for keeping track of "who's doing what," that is, checking that your copying/printing is being done for business purposes and not for "extra-curricular" stuff like printing car wash flyers, church bulletins, yard sale notices, and so forth.
Singing "God Save The Queen" in the morning when no-one's looking? I doubt it. More than likely it's singing "Kimigayo" at it's first glimpse of "The Rising Sun."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Vanclvh3Q
Machine getting a lot more use than anyone thought? No surprise to me. It's a common mistake many businesses and schools make when purchasing (or leasing) a copier. Underestimating how much use the box is going to get, then overestimating what it's capable of handling. Only about 75% of the places I go to seem to get it right.
And those "smart phone" type touch screens? None of my customers seem to like them very much. My colleagues and I usually set them up for what's called "Classic" choices, i.e. make the "Classic" selection and the traditional copier-printer-scanner-fax menus folks are used to show up on the screen. I think they're pushing the technology just a little too fast for the end users on these things.
And a "paperless society?" Forget it! Not going to happen in our lifetime, not from what I see.
Ours are on a 2 year lease and get very heavy use. The one in the Mine School building supports 4 different programs each with many multiple courses and a half dozen profs, plus the students.
It does everything of course and rumour has it it sings God Save The Queen at sunrise. I also believe it tracks my every movement.
Now this is true...just this past week I navigated onto a screen I had never seen or used before, trying to fiqure it out and there in the corner along the bottom is my name! Blurted out "whaaaaat" out loud. We have a code for departments to log in but not by individual name. How did it know who I was! That thing is watching and recording my every move.
Our resident specialist on the Forum is Firelock...I imagine he has seen it all and knows whats up.
CN buys those giant new Xerox machines for all the yard offices, with touchscreens and all the bells & whistles.
They usually last about 4-5 months before being replaced, due to the sheer amount of paper we go through. One of the service guys said that in a month one of CN's machines will go through the same amount of paper a typical office one would see in a year.
Oh yes, multiple digital screens and its all touch.
On a digital LCD screen no doubt.
Does it have a touchscreen?
Our copier will display "low on Toner" and "replace Toner cartridge".
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