NP Dome Sleepers

[NP Eddie]

Page 169 of "Northern Pacific Pictorial-Volume Five" (John F. Strauss, Jr.) shows a photograph of the "Yellowstone River" on the rear of #26 at Butte. It states that Louis Menk did not like to ride on his or anyone's railroad, but the Northern Pacific airplane was grounded due to weather. As information, Mr. Menk's bedroom on the Yellowstone River had to be remodeled to accommodate his tall body.

Ed Burns

[VerMontanan]

Thanks for the information about the dome sleepers on the "Chessie."  My takeaway with the dome sleepers is that while they offered access to a dome in immediate proximity to rooms, there were fewer rooms in the car to accommodate the dome being there.

With regard to:

rcdrye

The observation cars were retired when the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited were combined on the CB&Q east of Minneapolis.  GN's Empire Builder observations were pulled from service at the same time.  Both trains were combined with a Zephyr (I think Afternoon Zephyr westbound and Morning Zephyr eastbound, but I may be wrong).

When the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited were combined east of the Twin Cities, they were combined at St. Paul, not Minneapolis.  The observation cars were removed from the Empire Builder starting in 1960, which was the same time the eastbound train began being consolidated with the eastbound North Coast Limited east of St. Paul, though the trains ran seperately during holidays and summer seasons through the mid-1960s.  The observation cars were removed from the North Coast Limited in 1967.

The primary reason for the downgrading of any service during this time was declining patronage.  Specifically for the Empire Builder, the observation car was deemed unnecessary because the train still had a Great Dome full length lounge, which was the lounge space for sleeping car passengers.  In other words, the train was overly flush with non-revenue lounge space.  The observation cars did return on occasion, such as during the 1962 Seattle World's Fair.  GN continued to run observation cars on peak season versions of the Western Star (and often, the Internationals).

With regard to the North Coast Limited, the removal of the observation car was completely about a decline in patronage, but to the NP's credit, the reconfiguration of the seats in some dome sleepers to a "Lounge-in-the-Sky" showed a desire to retain a modicum of a first class lounge.  The "Lounge-in-the-Sky" replaced the observation cars.  (Of course, there are some in the NP camp who will go to their deathbed thinking that the observation cars were removed from the NCL so Lou Menk could place his business car on the rear of the train....this, of course, is ridiculous for so many reasons.)

The Empire Builder and North Coast Limited started to be combined westbound in November of 1966.  (Eastbound, as stated earlier, the consolidation first began in 1960).  In 1966, the Morning and Afternoon Zephyrs continued to operate as separate trains both ways between Chicago and Minneapolis, but eventually the eastbound Morning Zephyr and westbound Afternoon Zephyr were consolidated into the Empire Builder/North Coast Limited (with periodic exceptions).  Between 1960 and 1966 inclusive, though, the eastbound Morning and Afternoon Zephyrs operated as separate trains, as did the westbound Morning Zephyr.  The westbound Afternoon Zephyr (again, depending on the season) was often consolidated with the Empire Builder, but never the North Coast Limited.  The reason for this was that due to the North Coast Limited's longer running time, it needed to depart Chicago about 2.5 hours earlier than the Empire Builder to arrive in Seattle and Pasco (where Portland cars were handed off to the SP&S) at about the same time as the Empire Builder.  After November 1966, the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited were consolidated in each direction between Chicago and St. Paul.  This advanced the departure of the westbound Empire Builder at Chicago from 75 to 105 minutes ahead of the previous schedule, and this resulted in added padding as the Empire Builder and North Coast Limited would still be "re-consolidated" at Pasco.  (There was already plenty of padding in the eastbound Empire Builder schedule in order to protect desirable station times at Spokane and Minneapolis.)  This added padding was one of the reasons that GN started adding Glacier Park/Belton tourist sleepers to the Empire Builder (starting in 1968) instead of moving them on the Western Star as had previously been the case:  There was simply the time in the schedule to do it.

[M636C]

I travelled on one of the dome sleepers on the eastbound Amtrak Empire Builder in September 1977. I was actually booked in a roomette in a 10+6, but I was wandering through the train and found this as the last car on the train. I think there was a maximum of five people in the dome at any time. The vestibule end was trailing with just a chain across the passageway, so it was a bit like an open platform observation. The train had four SDP40Fs going back to EMD to become F40PHMs, and the train was making 79 mph.

I picked up some snacks in the full length dome and headed back to the sleeper dome (which of course had a buffet that was not used). Across Montana you could watch the progress by the grain elevators, with one ahead and one behind in view much of the time. one passenger had a portable radio tuned to a local country music station, which suited the whole atmosphere...

Peter 

[rcdrye]

The observation cars were retired when the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited were combined on the CB&Q east of Minneapolis.  GN's Empire Builder observations were pulled from service at the same time.  Both trains were combined with a Zephyr (I think Afternoon Zephyr westbound and Morning Zephyr eastbound, but I may be wrong).

[NP Eddie]

The six observation cars (five NP and one CBQ) entered service in 1946. I don't know why the NP and CBQ decided to retire them in 1967. The former Rainier Club (NP 390) was eventually purchased by the Lake Superior Transportation in Duluth. It is in pristine condition under a train shed. I did see a picture of the CBQ car painted imitation silver, probably used as a parlor car. One car is on a New England railroad as a business car (I don't know the number of that car). My guess is that the other four cars are scrapped or derlict at unknown point(s).  I do remeber seeing the five NP cars at the NP coach yard in St. Paul. Those observation cars had 1 compartment, 4 double bedrooms, and a buffet lounge, for a total sleeping capacity of 10 or 11.

Now for the dome sleepers: six dome sleepers were converted by Pullman to new Pullman plan 9535A. You are correct that two of the single bedrooms were removed and a buffet galley built into that space. The dome section was remodeled to include angled tables and seats so the people could enjoy their beverages and snacks while viewing the scenery. Former numbers were: NP 307, NP 308, NP 311, NP 312, NP 314, and CBQ 304. New numbers were NP 375-379 and CBQ 380.  I rode in two of the "Lounge in the Sky" cars in 1971 when my wife and I went from Minnneapolis to Seattle on our honeymoon (Empire Builder out and NCL home).

Enough of my long winded response. My reference is my experience as an NP clerk at Northtown and Wayner's "Car Names, Number, and Consists".

Ed Burns

 

[rcdrye]

Describing NP's dome sleepers as "standard" is a bit of a stretch.  PRR's postwar 12 DupSglRm 4 DBR Brook series slept up to 20. Rock Island had some 8 rmt 6 DBR cars that would only hold 20 if all beds were in use.  Atlantic Coast Line rebuilt some prewar NYC 4 DBR 4Cpt 2DR (sleep 22) cars to 4Cpt 4DR cars (Sleep 20) for Florida Special service in 1962.  There were dozens of different lounge sleeper configurations, both with and without observation platforms or solarium ends.  Santa Fe's Vista series observations with 4 DR and 1 DBR (sleep 14) were notably high capacity for an observation lounge, exceeded only by Miwaukee's Skytop cars for the Olympian Hiawatha which had 8 DBRs for 16 beds.  The Skytops were the real competition for NP's Dome Sleepers.  In dome coaches the bathrooms could be placed under the dome, freeing up space for seats where the coach restrooms would normally go.  The only other dome sleepers built (for C&O's Chessie, later used by B&O and SCL) had five roomettes, 1 single bedroom and 3 Drawing Rooms with two beds each instead of the normal three (two lowers instead of two lowers and an upper), so only slept 12.

[daveklepper]

Nearest would be a five or six-double bedroom buffet lounge, with a total revenue capacity of ten or twelve.

[VerMontanan]

Northern Pacific's dome sleeping cars had 4 roomettes, 4 duplex single rooms, and 4 double bedrooms (the 24 seats in the dome car were not revenue space).  Assuming maximum occupancy of 1 person in each of the roomettes and single rooms, and 2 people each in the double bedrooms, that's a maximum of 16 passengers.  (After most of the cars were modified to the "Lounge In The Sky" configuration and two of the duplex single rooms became "buffet" space for the "lounge" upstairs, maximum capacity dropped to 14.)

I know that numerous observation cars had sleeping accommodations and since they often had an extensive lounge section, they could not accommodate even 16 people.  But for a car created specifically as a sleeping car, was there another standard American sleeping car that had passenger capacity fewer than NP's dome sleepers?