Santa Fe actually ran extensive water piping in the Southwest. They ran water supply piping into the Grand Canyon, perhaps all the way from Williams. In fact ALL the surviving piping down into the Canyon was constructed by the Santa Fe (the National Park Service told us during our tour) in order to promote tourism. All the Santa Fe constructed water piping is still in use, as well as structures they built at the top and also down in the Canyon itself.
I just read in the latest issue of Trains that more than 3 tons of accumulated "gunk" had to be removed from the tender of Santa Fe 2903 during its restoration, that was a result of bad water and the water treatment.
Past Trains' articles have mentioned the water treatment additives that were available to engine crews to add to the tender water after they were filled, on both SP and ATSF.
John
Hoover Dam was built to provide hydro-electric power to the region. It really had nothing to do with water usage, irrigation etc.
In the steam era, railroads did what they had to do to keep going. That involved employing a large workforce to maintain steam engines, and facilities to provide fuel and water for them. For the ATSF, providing water for steam engines was a major hassle. Once the diesel came along, it saved them money and time to not have to haul water by rail to remote outposts to fill water tanks for the steam engines. During WW2, many railroads that ordered new diesels were given steam engines instead. ATSF was one of the few railroads allowed to buy new road diesels, because the US government recognized how much of a benefit they would be to Santa Fe due to their water issues.
BLS53 Considering ATSF had been operating in that desert environment for over half a century, why would that have suddenly become a major issue in the 1940's? Especially considering that the Hoover Dam was completed in 1931, and other similar projects, had alleviated much of the problem. I never heard of water rationing in WWII, but maybe it did exist in the desert southwest, and I'm not aware of it. Perhaps, ATSF saw the diesel, and the brass wiped their brow in relief, knowing their water issues were over. I guess I just don't see this as an overriding argument for dieselization.
Considering ATSF had been operating in that desert environment for over half a century, why would that have suddenly become a major issue in the 1940's? Especially considering that the Hoover Dam was completed in 1931, and other similar projects, had alleviated much of the problem. I never heard of water rationing in WWII, but maybe it did exist in the desert southwest, and I'm not aware of it.
Perhaps, ATSF saw the diesel, and the brass wiped their brow in relief, knowing their water issues were over. I guess I just don't see this as an overriding argument for dieselization.
Hoover Dam was completed in 1935. Anyway, not sure what this has to do with AT&SF water supply. As you say, they already had thier watering facilities in place. They were not going to run hundreds of miles of water pipes to hook up to aquaducts or pay the water rates. Water supply concerns were another nail in the coffin for steam.
PRR8259In the steam era, even with water treatment, they still had alkali water stains down the sides of the steam locomotives, visible as white staining. Same with Southern Pacific steam power.
Those stains are likely due to the programmed boiler-water treatment (to get it to the roughly pH 11 for best corrosion behavior). You see them on many other roads that assuredly did not suffer from 'alkali water'.
My understanding was that many of the ATSF facilities that drew from 'alkali' sources had small built-in softening facilities, and that running and caring for these represented a good percentage of the cost of watering. It would be interesting to see what was required for ATSF to use the original nickel-steel alloys ... and if there was accelerated corrosion, cracking, etc. due to the water characteristics on the advanced locomotives' boilers.
Considering that the Santa Fe (and the Southern) used steam-powered air conditioning, it is no wonder that air conditioner experts on other roads found maintaining the Santa Fe cars' air conditioning systems to be difficult.
Johnny
ROBERT WILLISON Beyond the great operating efficiency that diesels offered, they were considered modern, a way railroad management could change their image. Railroad management along with the the Budd cars could bring a totally new product to the table. gone were heavyweight cars pulled by steamers, replaced with shiny new stream line trains pulled by an equally shiny new diesel. World war two slowed dieselization, but from an operating perspective and great public relations, steam wad dead.
Beyond the great operating efficiency that diesels offered, they were considered modern, a way railroad management could change their image. Railroad management along with the the Budd cars could bring a totally new product to the table. gone were heavyweight cars pulled by steamers, replaced with shiny new stream line trains pulled by an equally shiny new diesel. World war two slowed dieselization, but from an operating perspective and great public relations, steam wad dead.
Actually many Santa Fe heavyweight passenger cars were maintained in good repair, used on lesser trains into the 1960's, and were ultimately offered to Amtrak. Eastern railroads had difficulty maintaining Santa Fe's air conditioning systems, so Amtrak declined the offered heavyweight cars. A majority of the Amtrak equipment and motive power, at startup, came from the Santa Fe. They had maintained their equipment better than the other railroads.
Refer to Fred Frailey's "Twilight of the Great Trains". It's an excellent read!
Fair enough.
Except that other sources have reported the bad (alkali) water was part of the reason.
The silver painted mow service Santa Fe tank cars, for water service to some of the more out of the way locations in the Mojave Desert, did last well into the 1960's and are included in the Santa Fe Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment...so it seems plausible to me they were still in use, supplying water to some smaller locales, even after the steam era was over.
PRR8259 BLS53 Considering ATSF had been operating in that desert environment for over half a century, why would that have suddenly become a major issue in the 1940's? Especially considering that the Hoover Dam was completed in 1931, and other similar projects, had alleviated much of the problem. I never heard of water rationing in WWII, but maybe it did exist in the desert southwest, and I'm not aware of it. Perhaps, ATSF saw the diesel, and the brass wiped their brow in relief, knowing their water issues were over. I guess I just don't see this as an overriding argument for dieselization. This is somewhat overly simplistic at best. If you read some of the past issues of Trains and Classic Trains, they show that the dieselization was much more complex than simply a bad water issue. It has been actually very well documented in Classic Trains' past issues. During WWII the U.S. Government defined the Santa Fe mainline as being the most critical mainline in the west for the movement of war materiel (military spelling). That is why ATSF was allocated the lion's share of FT production, and that is why other roads could not obtain FT diesels. The Santa Fe had the shortest and fastest route to west coast ports. The other railroads had not yet shortened their mainlines to be as highly competitive on shipping time as Santa Fe. The UP realignments had not yet been designed. They came during the '50's. The U.S. Government stationed 24 hour a day armed guards at certain locations on the Santa Fe, including but not limited to the Raton Pass tunnels, with direct orders to shoot ANYONE they saw ON SIGHT, no questions asked. They were concerned that enemy combatants would attempt to blow up the tunnels. Also, the story of dieselization is such that, yes, bad water played a role, but the diesels were more efficient over certain operating divisions: for example, the sustained 122 miles of roughly 1% grades in the Western Pacific Feather River Canyon were ideally suited to diesel low speed tractive effort, and consequently, the Western Pacific dieselized very early. Certain parts of the Santa Fe were highly conducive to early diesel operations, as they maximized the low speed tractive effort of diesels, while other sections did favor continued operation of steam power at high speed, at least for awhile, till labor costs to service steam also skyrocketed. You can't make blanket statements about Santa Fe dieselization. Their late design, highly efficient steamers excelled on flatter parts of the railroad where they could roll mile long trains of reefers at better than 60 mph. The early diesels were not as adept at that. Santa Fe 2-10-4's had a marvelous actual drawbar horsepower curve that saw horsepower above 5000 in the 40 to 60+ mph speed range, peaking at 5600 or more. They could accomplish things that early diesels could not do, at least until the F-7's came along. Respectfully submitted-- John
This is somewhat overly simplistic at best. If you read some of the past issues of Trains and Classic Trains, they show that the dieselization was much more complex than simply a bad water issue. It has been actually very well documented in Classic Trains' past issues.
During WWII the U.S. Government defined the Santa Fe mainline as being the most critical mainline in the west for the movement of war materiel (military spelling). That is why ATSF was allocated the lion's share of FT production, and that is why other roads could not obtain FT diesels. The Santa Fe had the shortest and fastest route to west coast ports. The other railroads had not yet shortened their mainlines to be as highly competitive on shipping time as Santa Fe. The UP realignments had not yet been designed. They came during the '50's.
The U.S. Government stationed 24 hour a day armed guards at certain locations on the Santa Fe, including but not limited to the Raton Pass tunnels, with direct orders to shoot ANYONE they saw ON SIGHT, no questions asked. They were concerned that enemy combatants would attempt to blow up the tunnels.
Also, the story of dieselization is such that, yes, bad water played a role, but the diesels were more efficient over certain operating divisions: for example, the sustained 122 miles of roughly 1% grades in the Western Pacific Feather River Canyon were ideally suited to diesel low speed tractive effort, and consequently, the Western Pacific dieselized very early.
Certain parts of the Santa Fe were highly conducive to early diesel operations, as they maximized the low speed tractive effort of diesels, while other sections did favor continued operation of steam power at high speed, at least for awhile, till labor costs to service steam also skyrocketed. You can't make blanket statements about Santa Fe dieselization. Their late design, highly efficient steamers excelled on flatter parts of the railroad where they could roll mile long trains of reefers at better than 60 mph. The early diesels were not as adept at that.
Santa Fe 2-10-4's had a marvelous actual drawbar horsepower curve that saw horsepower above 5000 in the 40 to 60+ mph speed range, peaking at 5600 or more. They could accomplish things that early diesels could not do, at least until the F-7's came along.
Respectfully submitted--
Well, I made it simplistic as a counterpoint to the earlier statement that the reason the ATSF dieselized early was because of the water issue.
If the diesel had arrived on the scene in 1890, I may well agree with the point. But the diesels arrival coincided with the arrival of water, air conditiong, and other amenities, that led to massive migration to the area. If water was still that much of an issue in the mid-20th century, I think it would have been a limiting factor in other areas of business besides the railroads. Population growth trends in the region in that era, prove otherwise. Steam engines are far from being the only thing requiring water to operate.
In summation, at that point in time, I believe the infrastructure had developed in the desert southwest, to the point where water wouldn't have been a deciding factor in dieselization.
I visited the Grand Canyon about 15 years ago. At that time the National Park Service guides made it perfectly clear that the Santa Fe Railway constructed ALL the water piping both to and in the Canyon, to promote the tourism. They also built some of the Hotels still being used and other related facilities. The water supply system is still in use. Throughout the Mojave desert regions, the Santa Fe provided the local drinking water, which was brought in by tank car weekly or as needed. Without the Santa Fe, the National Park would not have developed as it has.
In the steam era, even with water treatment, they still had alkali water stains down the sides of the steam locomotives, visible as white staining. Same with Southern Pacific steam power.
Deggesty water in the area was highly alkaline--and it had to be treated so that the alkali would not clog everything up if it were used. There was sufficient water available--but it was expensive to use.
Don't know if this applys to Santa Fe.
Initially developed water sources very scace and freight practicually non- existant along the Southern Pacific route in Arizona. Early trains haluled more tank cars of water (for the locomotive) than cars of revenue freight.
As could be expected the SP developed water sources along their several routes in the west and southwest. Any water over what the SP needed was given away free. Settlers would bring wagon loads of water barrels or tank wagon to load up.
As towns developed on the route, the SP water sources suppiled their water systems.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
The ever-present issue with water was that the water in the area was highly alkaline--and it had to be treated so that the alkali would not clog everything up if it were used. There was sufficient water available--but it was expensive to use.
As DSchmitt remarked, the advent of reliable diesel power made it possible to no longer rely upon steam in the Southwest area.
BLS53Considering ATSF had been operating in that desert environment for over half a century, why would that have suddenly become a major issue in the 1940's?
Water was always an issue. It was not until the late 1940's that mass produced reliable Diesels with the power, speed, and range to do the job became available. Initially the General Motors FT's
Firelock76 Can't say there's no drama in modern day railroading, if there wasn't we wouldn't be out there lookin', would we? The difference is like going to your local cinema to see the current films versus turning on Turner Classic Movies and watching the classics from the 30's and the 40's. Which are the better movies, then or now, I leave it to you to judge. PS: I hardly ever go to the movies anymore, although there's a film coming out shortly on Dunkirk I probably won't miss. Update, 10:40 PM 5/13/17. I just spent the last two hours watching the 1937 "Lost Horizon" with Ronald Coleman. Great movie! Didn't mean to spend all that time watching an old movie but it just pulled me right in, with ridiculous ease I might add.
Can't say there's no drama in modern day railroading, if there wasn't we wouldn't be out there lookin', would we?
The difference is like going to your local cinema to see the current films versus turning on Turner Classic Movies and watching the classics from the 30's and the 40's. Which are the better movies, then or now, I leave it to you to judge.
PS: I hardly ever go to the movies anymore, although there's a film coming out shortly on Dunkirk I probably won't miss.
Update, 10:40 PM 5/13/17. I just spent the last two hours watching the 1937 "Lost Horizon" with Ronald Coleman. Great movie! Didn't mean to spend all that time watching an old movie but it just pulled me right in, with ridiculous ease I might add.
I have to agree. Modern trains, are better than no trains, which 50 years ago I thought might be a distinct possibility in the 21st Century. But, today we're basically talking about a half dozen railroads, of which one or another is present wherever one may roam in the US. Not to mention, modern locomotives are ubiquitous to all but the most detail obsessed aficionado.
Railfanning was an adventure in the 50's and 60's. Trips to different regions of the country revealed new experiences. The railroads, the locomotives, right down to the different signalling systems. Everything today is bland in comparison. And Chicago commuter trains are the blandest of the bland.
I regret never riding behind a pair of PA's between Bristol snd Chattanooga--my first trip on the Tennessean was, I believe, the first day that the Southern engines ran through over the N&W.
I was able to ride behind a J twice--Radford to Bristol and Bristol to Wytheville, in 1956.
In 1967-73, I enjoyed several steam excursions out of Birmingham.
It definitely has. There is a lot to be said for watching a set of GEVOs hustling a UPS priority train on the Transcon or standing on the Roosevelt Road overpass at evening rush hour as Metra shoots suburban trains of six to eight gallery coaches from Chicago Union Station to the suburbs.
The only steam in regular service that I remember was NKP Berkshires when I was five years old. Consequently, steam just doesn't do it for me.
Lest we forget the twelve Santa Fe 2-10-4s that Pennsy leased and placed in service out of Sandusky Ohio during 1956. Watching films of them working side by side PennsyJ1s is a sight to warm the heart of every Santa Fe and Pennsy fan. Railroading hasn't been this good ever since, has it?
RME CSSHEGEWISCH In the other direction, didn't M&StL try to order SAL-design 2-6-6-4's, but had to take A-B-A sets of FT's? They had an order in to Baldwin for five 2-6-6-4s. I have not heard the story about why the WPB would 'make' them take FT sets instead ... but I'll bet they didn't regret it.
CSSHEGEWISCH In the other direction, didn't M&StL try to order SAL-design 2-6-6-4's, but had to take A-B-A sets of FT's?
They had an order in to Baldwin for five 2-6-6-4s. I have not heard the story about why the WPB would 'make' them take FT sets instead ... but I'll bet they didn't regret it.
To to OP--
Santa Fe didn't "stop" using steam in 1953. Whatever source you are reading for that is questionnable at best. There were several other railroads which for all practical purposes ceased using steam during 1953--Road like Rock Island, which had very limited use of any steam at all after 1953. Also official sources are often wrong on the last use of steam. Rock Island announced to their shareholders, on more than one occasion, that ALL steam operations were finished in a city, like Chicago, when in fact steam operations were still continuing.
In Santa Fe's case, many freight movements were "extras". They had regularly scheduled freight trains like the famous GFX (Green Fruit Express), but they also had a high number of "extra" non-regularly-scheduled freight movements. In addition to that, there was very significant seasonal fruit and vegetable traffic. So, in effect, large numbers of Santa Fe steamers saw action AFTER 1953, including specifically large numbers of 2-10-4's, 4-8-4's, and the best (3800 class) 2-10-2's. Some of that was seasonal traffic, but some was also regular, routine switching activity, and helper service. In other posts on these forums it was alleged that it was non-revenue service, after 1953. That is false. Trains didn't help themselves through Abo Canyon.
It is more accurate to refer to the real end of steam operations as being August of 1957, when the last 4-8-4's and 2-10-4's ceased helper operations out of Belen.
RMEThe 'mother lode' is Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, p.379 (section called something like 'Iron horses that didn't make the trail'). There was at one time a detailed modeling article on someone 'kitbashing' a version, which I read with great interest right up to finding them use a diesel C truck under the firebox...
I will have to keep an eye out for 'Iron Horses...' - Thanks!
--Reed
RedwardsI've read about the C1a, but don't recall hearing about an ATSF high speed design? Any additional information or details out there
The 'mother lode' is Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, p.379 (section called something like 'Iron horses that didn't make the trail'). There was at one time a detailed modeling article on someone 'kitbashing' a version, which I read with great interest right up to finding them use a diesel C truck under the firebox...
The six wheels would be for the added mass of firebox and chamber syphons (see the aborted 1947 design for the 3460s for a smaller version) in a high-pressure boiler. Think of a late Lima design "backpedaling". Oil fuel makes cab-forward design attractive by comparison with something like DR 05 003, but the poorer thrust characteristic of a 'backward' unconjugated duplex would exacerbate any high-speed slipping tendency.
RMEAdmittedly 3765 never got its shroud because it would have been overweight, but you did not see any later streamlining to match the pretty trains, nor did you see any particular postwar emphasis on that 6-4-4-4 design that was the 'true' high-speed passenger design for ATSF (as the C1a was for NYC).
I've read about the C1a, but don't recall hearing about an ATSF high speed design? Any additional information or details out there (a quick google search didn't seem to find much)? Thanks.
CSSHEGEWISCHIn the other direction, didn't M&StL try to order SAL-design 2-6-6-4's, but had to take A-B-A sets of FT's?
In the other direction, didn't M&StL try to order SAL-design 2-6-6-4's, but had to take A-B-A sets of FT's?
IIRC during World War 2 many railroads ordered FT diesels, but very few got them. Most were forced to buy new steam instead. One of the few who did get them was the Santa Fe, which as I recall was allocated diesels specifically because of the problems it faced supplying water for it's steam engines in the arid Southwest.
DeggestyI am curious: what was the "corporate image" that steam did not fit?
I think he means the 'Santa Fe - All The Way' efficient, fast, dieselized picture that ATSF contemporary PR films were trying to evoke.
Trains Magazine in the early 1980s ran an article on the '50s use of the Big Three and some other large ATSF power. Most of their 'mission' was precisely the sort of fast mainline service that was increasingly optimal for diesels, and there was little 'secondary' service they were well-suited for -- so you saw them on things like secondary passenger trains and mail runs.
As I indicated, I think the decision to eliminate the big steam was primarily economic, and the economic and operational advantages (nominal as they might have been at the time) were what determined 'corporate image', not the other way around.
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