Keeping rare railroad books off of Google books

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Keeping rare railroad books off of Google books
Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Sunday, January 08, 2017 5:01 PM

I would be POed if I found my book for free on Google Books how would I keep it off and keep it rare?

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, January 09, 2017 8:35 AM

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Is this a book you wrote, or a rare collectable you own and want to make sure you recover the investment on?

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Posted by K4sPRR on Monday, January 09, 2017 6:12 PM

Lawsuits filed against Google for copyright violations have resulted in decisions favorable to Google by the courts.  In 2016 the Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal concurring with the decision of a lower court. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, January 09, 2017 9:44 PM

Rare books are often old first editions.  A mass produced reprint is not rare.  And Google is not even a book.

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Posted by erikem on Monday, January 09, 2017 11:00 PM

Unless permsion is specifically granted by the copyright holder, Google cannot not legally put a book online with unrestricted access that was published after 1923. The boooks that are available for free download from Google are typically published 1923 or earlier.

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Posted by BigJim on Tuesday, January 10, 2017 7:25 AM

CandOforprogress2

I would be POed if I found my book for free on Google Books how would I keep it off and keep it rare?


Firelock76

I'm not sure I understand your question.  Is this a book you wrote, or a rare collectable you own and want to make sure you recover the investment on?


I'm not understanding this either. Are you trying to keep the information in your book secret, attainable only to those wealthy enough to pay big bucks for the knowledge?

 

.

RME
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Posted by RME on Tuesday, January 10, 2017 3:41 PM

Firelock76
I'm not sure I understand your question.  Is this a book you wrote, or a rare collectable you own and want to make sure you recover the investment on?

Even for Raymond types, the answer would have to be the latter: the original author seldom benefits from resale of books that have "appreciated" at dealers.  (The author may be motivated, as David Wardale was, to re-issue a significant work if the aftermarket 'agio' on it gets too high, but very seldom is 'making a profit' from the re-issue a major factor in such a decision.)

It would certainly be nice if authors received some percentage of each resale of one of their copyrighted books.  Have fun trying to figure out how to do that, or how to enforce the payment!

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, January 10, 2017 3:57 PM

Let's look at an equivalent:

Daddy Bigbucks bought a Ming vase, certified by the Koumintang Government as a genuine historical artifact.

A few years later, Antiques 'R' Us started selling cheap plastic copies of Daddy's vase, using info taken from photos.

Then the Art for Everyone Society developed a 3-D print program for the same vase, available free on the internet.  If you want your own Ming vase, just download the program to your 3-D printer and make one.  Or you can just look at the pretty pictures on-screen.

Has Daddy Bigbucks' genuine antique Ming vase lost value?  Not to the serious collectors of antique Ming vases, it hasn't.  They wouldn't touch that plastic junk with your ten foot pole.

Likewise, a real first edition hardcopy book, properly cared for, will always have collectible value for people who want that.  For people who just want the information and are content to read off a screen or use reams of their own paper...

Two different markets, two different mindsets.

Chuck (Occasional hobby author)

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Posted by PRR8259 on Wednesday, January 11, 2017 9:17 PM

I have seen portions of rare copyrighted train books available online.

Just as with music, printed or recorded, it is stealing--but most internet users simply do not care.  My other hobby is music, live performance...It is my opinion that it does lower the value of the original every time someone pirates it.  Why on earth would I buy the rare train book when I can download it for free???

There are books recently out of print going for 3 times full msrp.  The incentive to download those books is very high for some.  I have not but in my case seeing a couple pages here and there in auction listings has helped me to decide I didn't really need that particular book at all.

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Posted by PRR8259 on Wednesday, January 11, 2017 9:42 PM

I am looking for a book that sold for $60 called Texas & Pacific Color Pictorial.  Amazon has it used with markups at $125, and some folks are asking ss much as $500.  I am sure people will download versus pay the fee...I just do without hoping for a bargain to appear.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:32 PM

PRR8259

I am looking for a book that sold for $60 called Texas & Pacific Color Pictorial.  Amazon has it used with markups at $125, and some folks are asking ss much as $500.  I am sure people will download versus pay the fee...I just do without hoping for a bargain to appear.

 

Man, hit the train shows and used book dealers, even antique and flea markets, and keep your fingers crossed, you might get lucky.  Another good source are library deasession sales, every once in a while libraries will clear out books that haven't been checked out or even touched for a number of years.  As a matter of fact, I've got a copy of Jeffrie's "Norfolk and Western, Giant of Steam" deasessioned from the Library of Congress, got it from a used book dealer and don't think I paid more than $25 for it.

I've scored on numerous occasions.  And besides, you can't beat the thrill of the hunt!

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Posted by RME on Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:55 PM

Firelock76
I've got a copy of Jeffries's "Norfolk and Western, Giant of Steam" deaccessioned from the Library of Congress, got it from a used book dealer and don't think I paid more than $25 for it.

Didn't meet the CREW formula 8/3/MUSTIE, eh?  Bet it was the first edition.

Ex-library copies often trade at stiff discount.  That doesn't affect the reading or usefulness...

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, January 12, 2017 8:40 PM

Yep, first edition!  The solon's loss was my gain!

And politicians wonder why they get so little respect!

Anyway, I bought it from a local bookseller called Collector's Companion.  While they don't specialize in railbooks they've come across quite a few in the 20+ years I've been purchasing from them, so if there's something you're looking for you may want to give them a shout.

www.collectorscompanion.com   You never know.

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Saturday, January 14, 2017 1:20 PM

Before calling the use of the internet, "Stealing," note two things:

  1. Usually, only a portion containing common (available from multiple sources) information is available for free browsing or download.  Other portions of that rare first edition come up, "This page not available'" or something similar.
  2. The entity which uploaded the document may have received permission from the copyright owner, or the copyright might have run out.  Last time I looked, the copyright goes to public domain a half-century or so after the death of the author unless revised and renewed by the current holder.

So the question remains, are you looking for the thrill of owning a rare first edition book, or are you simply seeking the information it contains.  I, personally, am an information freak, and I don't care if I find it on the internet, at a rare book store or handscribbled on scratch paper rolled up in a can that previously contained potato chips.  The rare book store is the source of last resort - and the one I deal with has gotten me a lot of books at less-than-publisher prices.

Chuck (Researcher and occasional author)

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Posted by gregc on Saturday, January 14, 2017 3:25 PM

i agree with others that doubt buyers of a rare book are interested in its contents.   They value the physical items.   If they are interested in reading the book, they probably read a copy.

Escher would destroy the plates used to make prints after a limited number wree made in order to increase the value of the prints.

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by JayPotter on Saturday, January 14, 2017 4:20 PM

I use Google Books frequently to access publications that are in the public domain; however I seldom use it to access the redacted versions of publications that are not. My primary railroading interest is locomotive performance.  One concept that I've learned from my Google Books searches for old publications is that information on locomotive performance was much more widely publicized a century-or-so ago than it has been recently.  Google books has provided me with a great deal of information that I once would have had to seek at multiple depositories.  I doubt that any of it originated in "rare" books that are still copyright protected.

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Posted by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer on Saturday, January 14, 2017 5:24 PM

www.arizonahobbies.com One copy T&P Color Pictorial available @ $125.00.  Owner is UP engineer by trade, I order from him frequently.  Also great prices on current books and DVDs!  I doubt if you'll find Steve Goen's T&P book at a more reasonable price! 

Virtually unknown and partially financed by T&P is the book titled Tomorrow in West Texas: Economic Opportunities Along the Texas & Pacific Railway by Sidney L. Miller.  Prepared by the West Texas Chamber of Commerce; Publisher Texas Tech Press 1956 Hardcover 643 pages  Copies easily found; reasonably priced. 

No illustrations but dustjacket has photo of T&P F units on front with view looking out at arid West Texas country from observation car on back.  Has chapter on railroads as well as industry, cattle, oil, natural gas, agriculture, water, air and highway transportation, and much more. 

A great read about West Texas 60 years ago!   

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Posted by PRR8259 on Friday, January 20, 2017 9:30 AM

Thanks much for the book tip.  They have some great stuff on hand which I will try to pick up once I sell some HO stuff.

Regarding my stealing comment above...as an even part time musician this issue hits close to home.  Those sites that show a page or two...a good musician can then steal the entire song and at that point is stealing royalties from the composer or arrangers who never get much anyway.

In books I have seen entire books available online which I am very sure were still copyrighted.  I was stunned.  Perhaps they were licensed but perhaps not.  I know pirated music and other media is a huge issue.

I also am one person who buys rare train books, reads them, and then often resells them later once I have learned what I want to learn.  Most libraries don't have these...If you are careful you can read them and maintain mint condition.

I have had diverse train interests and could not possibly afford to keep all the books I have read, and there's always more to read.

John

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Posted by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer on Friday, January 20, 2017 10:07 AM

Welcome to the world of rare book buyers John.  I have done the same thing.  I treasure my 99.99% mint copy of Morris Cafky's Colorado Midland for example. 

Ditto with Denver, South Park & Pacific Pictorial, numbered and signed by all three authors, still in the original shipping carton addressed to noted railroad historian David F. Myrick (who authored books on the Railroads of AZ NM and NV) to his 1958 San Francisco, Calif. address!  I plan to sell it and the limited slip case edition of The South Park Line by Malloy Hope Ferrell as a set in the near future though.  You just can't keep'em all you know.

What amazes me are the number of books by renowned railroad and sport author S. Kip Farrington Jr, which some dealers demand unrealistic high prices on the Abe Books site.  These books were not limited editions and are NOT rare by any means.  Farrington visited the railroads he wrote about and rode the trains as related in his books.  They remain great reads even today in 2017 as they show how men railroaded during WWII and into the post-war era as well.

I understand your frustration regarding piracy of copyrighted material.  Sadly, we live in an age of crooks and con men.  Just look at the presidential campaign we watched unfold on TV and the lies and fake news that was spread by both the candidates as well as the media!  In one word: Disgusting!

Good luck on obtaining a copy of the T&P Color Pictorial at a reasonable price.  Sorry, my copy is a keeper! 

Joe

 

 

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Posted by PRR8259 on Saturday, January 21, 2017 5:19 PM

Well I do believe some of S. Kip Farrington's books are rare.  I never see them.  The Santa Fe's Big Three is a great read!  Unfortunately either Lloyd Stagner's memory or note taking skills were very questionable because throughout his Santa Fe in Color series published by Morning Sun, when Stagner quotes loco power figures, he often gets the numbers wrong and he lists Farrington's work as a source.

I have learned the hard way to check the original source material especially with regard to steam locomotive data, thanks to Mr. Stagner...

So far as purchases go I had to buy and read Southern Pacific's Ten-Coupled Locomotives before the T&P book.

John

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, January 21, 2017 7:08 PM

I've seen a few things in Morning Sun books that were incorrect, but I can't say it's bothered me all that much.  In my opinon the Morning Sun books are railfan "slide shows" that have been converted to a hard-cover format, and well done too, they should last for decades.

When I puchase a MS book I'm buying it for the photography, not particularly for any hard data.  Honestly, I haven't been disappointed with any of them. 

Kip Farrington's books aren't that hard to find in this part of the country.  It's a rare train meet I go to where I don't see several of them for sale from various exhibitors. 

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Posted by PRR8259 on Saturday, January 21, 2017 11:00 PM

I am a design engineer, unfortunately mostly highway, but I can do rail...

This is only my personal opinion, but I think we owe it to future generations of railfans and historians to get the facts of steam locomotive horsepower curves, maximum starting tractive effort, etc.correct.  I have seen people quote data from Morning Sun and other books, online and elsewhere, as being correct when in fact it is not and some of the errors have been huge...then this causes confusion for folks like steamlocomotive.com who are honestly trying to assemble factually accurate online databases.

Santa Fe was very conservative in rating their late steam classes and the actual dynamometer test data published in Farrington's book reveals the engines actually performed better than is generally reported.  In particular peak drawbar horsepower of the 2-10-4 was higher than is normally quoted...I think an astounding 5600 hp at about 45 or 50 mph but I no longer have that book...Farrington's book is truly remarkable because few railroads did actual drawbar horsepower tests, and even fewer saved the data for posterity, and he was there as a firsthand witness and was allowed to publish the results.

I am not even particularly a Santa Fe steam fan as for aesthetics I just prefer Alcos, but those final Santa Fe steamers were simply amazing machines by any standard.

The preceding is my opinion only and others may freely disagree.

Best regards-- 

John

P.S. www.steamlocomotive.com is continually updating their site and now shows starting tractive effort for Santa Fe 5001 and 5011 class 2-10-4 as 108961 pounds with peak cylinder horsepower over 6000.  This matches up well with the actual drawbar horsepower curves as reported by Mr Farrington in his book.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, January 22, 2017 11:41 AM

That's OK John, people can disagree without being disagreeable, in my own particular view anyway.

I'll say this about Morning Sun and let it drop, for me the books are entertainment, no more, no less.  For serious study I realize I have to go elsewhere.  Kind of like "History versus Hollywood," if you know what I mean.

Wayne

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Posted by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer on Sunday, January 22, 2017 3:08 PM

S. Kip Farrington, Jr. signed and presented many of his books to railroaders and friends alike.  They might be considered "rare" but by no means were they limited edition printings.  I found my first Farrington book in a school library while attending jr. high in the 50s in Dallas.

I agree that books printed by Morning Sun, Four Ways West, and other publishers which feature vintage color of trains should be considered entertainment and in no way a source for accurate information. 

Many historical societies as well as some publishers continue to release books that specialize on specific railroads, the Santa Fe and Southern Pacific to name two.  The SPH&TS released a book that covers the "Krauts", the diesel hydraulics that they along with Rio Grande imported from Germany's Krauss-Maffei in the early 60s.  A fantasic book to say the least!  Other examples are Farrington's Santa Fe's Big Three which has been mentioned and Paired Rail's Santa Fe Waycars.

The color publications contain a wealth of information for model railroaders to help accurately paint their models.  Two diesel locomotives where no color photographs have surfaced to date is the Cotton Belt GP7 delivered in SP's Daylight scheme and Texas & Pacific RS2 which was the ONLY Alco diesel model rostered on the Teepee.  It went to the jointly owned, with Mopac, Texas Pacific-Missouri Pacific Terminal Railroad of New Orleans.

Wonder what a color negative or slide of either one would fetch today?  Beware of anyone offering one of either.  They are most likely fakes!

Joe

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Posted by timz on Sunday, January 22, 2017 3:39 PM

PRR8259
www.steamlocomotive.com is continually updating their site and now shows starting tractive effort for Santa Fe 5001 and 5011 class 2-10-4 as 108961 pounds

That needs more updating-- apparently they assumed 85% MEP.

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Posted by PRR8259 on Sunday, January 22, 2017 3:49 PM

My apologies for confusion.

Lloyd Stagner misquoted the Santa Fe horsepower curves, as published by Farrington, specifically for 2-10-4's, in the Morning Sun books.  I do appreciate that most people today are only interested in the photos, and I get that.  For myself I am more interested in the original sources or those who extensively intervie

wed those people, authors like William Kratville and of course S. Kip Farrington.  Yes I know Lloyd Stagner was there too, but I dont trust him whenever he mentions numbers.

Based on Farrington's book the 6000 plus peak cylinder hp on steamlocomotive.com is correct.  It matches very favorably with the drawbar horsepower, after friction losses, etc. as was reported by Mr. Farrington in The Santa Fe's Big Three.

John

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Posted by njsrr on Sunday, February 12, 2017 11:21 AM

I am listing a copy of this book on Ebay tonite (2-12), $99 Min bid, if you still need a copy.   seller - NJSRR

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Posted by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer on Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:36 AM

PRR8259: Nothing wrong with being a design engineer doin' highways is there?  I spent my military duty with the US Army Transportation Corps in Germany assigned to the German Army Transport Command Ansbach (Verkehrskommandantur Ansbach) and was responsible for coordinating US Army convoy traffic with the Bundeswehr's military traffic over the Autobahns and highways.  

I was a member of the 49th Transportation Group Mannheim, Branch Transportation Movement Office Nuremberg, Highway Regulation Team Ansbach.  Gads, what a mouthfull; I'm out of wind!

 

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Posted by PRR8259 on Monday, February 20, 2017 8:43 PM

No nothing wrong...except today lots of people think they could do better and dont fully appreciate what we do.

I ordered Stagner's Rock Island Steam Finale book... despite my misgivings about his memory of numbers...I got a Rock mikado in brass and wanted to learn more, and there are limited sources about the last years.

To our veterans, thank you for your service!

John

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