ACY gmpullman BaltACD The Capitol had an E6 and two E7Bs that day. The caption goes on to say that the (helper) experiment lasted only a few days since the Sharks were not geared for passenger speeds even on Sand Patch. You have pretty sharp eyes, Ed, but look again. B&O never owned an E7B, although they did roster E6B's, which looked almost identical. But that's not what the photo shows. You could be right that the lead passenger unit is an E6A, but the pilot shape leads me to suspect it's an E7A. The two trailing units appear to be passenger F3B's. The F3A and B passenger units were publicly displayed on the first runs of the streamlined Columbian, but as I mentioned above they were soon reassigned to the Capitol Limited and the Ambassador, generally in 3-unit ABA or ABB sets. See Stegmaier Pp. 51 & 54. An E unit was often substituted as the lead unit on the Capitol. I have heard that this was because the Capitol's engineer(s) preferred the ride qualities of the E's and had enough seniority and influence to get their way. Maybe that's an urban legend, but that's what I heard. Passenger F3's continued as principal power on the Ambassador, and as trailing units on the Capitol, until about 1954 when they were transferred to the Wahingtonian. For modeling purposes, it's worthwhile to remember that the F3A's retained their streamlined pilots, while the E6A's had their streamlined pilots replaced with freight pilots around the very early 1950's (see Stegmaier p. 14). My own HO version of the early 1950's Capitol is expected to run with an E8A, F3B, F3A combination. Tom
gmpullman BaltACD The Capitol had an E6 and two E7Bs that day. The caption goes on to say that the (helper) experiment lasted only a few days since the Sharks were not geared for passenger speeds even on Sand Patch.
BaltACD
The Capitol had an E6 and two E7Bs that day. The caption goes on to say that the (helper) experiment lasted only a few days since the Sharks were not geared for passenger speeds even on Sand Patch.
You have pretty sharp eyes, Ed, but look again. B&O never owned an E7B, although they did roster E6B's, which looked almost identical. But that's not what the photo shows. You could be right that the lead passenger unit is an E6A, but the pilot shape leads me to suspect it's an E7A. The two trailing units appear to be passenger F3B's.
The F3A and B passenger units were publicly displayed on the first runs of the streamlined Columbian, but as I mentioned above they were soon reassigned to the Capitol Limited and the Ambassador, generally in 3-unit ABA or ABB sets. See Stegmaier Pp. 51 & 54. An E unit was often substituted as the lead unit on the Capitol. I have heard that this was because the Capitol's engineer(s) preferred the ride qualities of the E's and had enough seniority and influence to get their way. Maybe that's an urban legend, but that's what I heard. Passenger F3's continued as principal power on the Ambassador, and as trailing units on the Capitol, until about 1954 when they were transferred to the Wahingtonian.
For modeling purposes, it's worthwhile to remember that the F3A's retained their streamlined pilots, while the E6A's had their streamlined pilots replaced with freight pilots around the very early 1950's (see Stegmaier p. 14). My own HO version of the early 1950's Capitol is expected to run with an E8A, F3B, F3A combination.
Tom
In the 1957 B&O engine renumbering. The passenger F3's were given numbers in the freight series of numbers. They were all assigned to the B&O's Chicago Division and used in freight service between Willard and Barr Yard in Chicago. They retained their steam generators and passenger gearing. It was not unheard of for a Time Saver to run from Pine Jct to Garret in much less than the 2 hours that the 120 mile distance between the points would be judged to be 'fast freight'.
The knock against the F3's in passenger service was they didn't have sufficient water capacity to handle a train from the Robey Street coach yard, to Grand Central Termainal to Garrett (division, crew change and servicing point) and not be out of water upon arrival at Garrett.
My father was Chicago Division Superintendent from 1959 until 1962.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
gmpullman BaltACD At one point in time, I believe the Sharks were kept and serviced at Cumberland. It is possible, after steam was retired, that a Shark set could have been used as a head end helper on various trains, including the Capitol Limited. The Capitol had an E6 and two E7Bs that day. The caption goes on to say that the (helper) experiment lasted only a few days since the Sharks were not geared for passenger speeds even on Sand Patch.
BaltACD At one point in time, I believe the Sharks were kept and serviced at Cumberland. It is possible, after steam was retired, that a Shark set could have been used as a head end helper on various trains, including the Capitol Limited.
If an RF-16 was used on that B&O passenger extra (and I have no reason to doubt you), there was no steam generator to provide power for heat to the passenger cars. Maybe it wasn't needed at that time of year. In any event, that was an extra movement, and does not reflect the normal assignments of diesels to scheduled passenger trains.
I have a negative of B&O 853 and another RF-16 on a passenger train. It's captioned as being a baseball game special from Wheeling, W.Va. to Cleveland, Ohio during the summer of 1952. Most photos of those trains that I've seen show them powered by FA-2s, some of which were equipped with steam generators. To me, the most likely reason for assigning an RF-16 consist would have been that it was the only power available.
BaltACDAt one point in time, I believe the Sharks were kept and serviced at Cumberland. It is possible, after steam was retired, that a Shark set could have been used as a head end helper on various trains, including the Capitol Limited.
A small photo on page 17 of Harry Stegmaier's B&O Passenger Service 1945~1971 V. II shows B&O RF16 No. 861 being tied on to the head-end of No. 5 at Cumberland, on July 4, 1952.
Even if it only happened once, that gives me licence to repeat the scene on my HO layout
Regards, Ed
For most of their careers, the B&O's RF-16 Sharks operated out of Fairmont on such lines as the Sheepskin to Connellsville and other nearby lines. They were photographed farther east, operating out of Cumberland in the 1950's. As mentioned, they were strictly freight engines and would not have been used on a passenger train, especially one as important as the Capitol Limited through Akron. I lived in Akron in the early 1960's. At that time, most freights were handled by EMD GP9's and F7's, but we sometimes saw Alco FA's on Cleveland-bound freights, plus occasional RF-16's on coal trains from Holloway, Ohio to Fairport Harbor on Lake Erie.
According to Larry Sagle's book A Picture History of B&O Motive Power (published 1952), the EA's were mostly in service north of Washington at that time. E6's handled the Shenandoah, Washington/Chicago Night Express, and the Columbian between Washington and Chicago; F3's handled the Capitol Limited and the Ambassador between Washington and Chicago/Detroit; and E7's handled the National Limited, The Diplomat, and 11/12 between Washington and St. Louis.
These assignments were not cast in stone. E7's were photographed on the Chicago trains, and E's were seen often on the Capitol, often MU'd with passenger F3's. E8's were arriving at this time, and assignments changed more and more. By the mid 1950's, the F3's went to lesser trains such as the Washingtonian between Washington and Cleveland, and around 1958 were reassigned to freight service. By the 1960's, long distance pasenger service was entirely in the hands of E units, used interchangeably as needed on whichever route. I did see a passenger GP used as the second unit on the Shenandoah once, but that was obviously a substitution and not standard practice. Passenger GPs were normally used in Washington-Baltimore area commuter service, and on a few branch line trains such as Akron-Cleveland and Detroit-Cincinnati. Of course B&O continued to use passenger-equipped F's and FA's on passenger extras.
PRR was running out the last miles on their Sharks in the early 1960's, and they were often seen in Akron around that time, but it's hard to imagine that you could mistake dirty and worm Brunswick green DGLE for B&O Royal Blue. The PRR and B&O shared trackage through Akron.
(Edited & amplified 12/31/16)
RMEPRR's passenger sharks were likely far from Akron in 1962, and wouldn't have been on the point of the Capitol Limited for any reason, that year or likely any other. The B&O retired all their RF16s in 1962, and they were 'exclusively' freight engines; while it's remotely possible a Baldwin might have been used in emergency to assist a Capitol Limited that suffered an engine failure, I think it highly unlikely (considering how the B&O used its Sharks) that one of them would be available and selected for the specific service dakotafred thinks he remembers. Stranger things may have happened, of course: we had someone a while back who distinctly remembered being 'pushed' by a K5 on the Northern Central - he took special note of the bell hanging under the headlight. And I very clearly remember 4935 being painted in five-stripe tuscan on her 'inaugural' trip (not noticing even when Loewy 'signed' her) ... proof that sometimes you can see what you expect or want to see.
The B&O retired all their RF16s in 1962, and they were 'exclusively' freight engines; while it's remotely possible a Baldwin might have been used in emergency to assist a Capitol Limited that suffered an engine failure, I think it highly unlikely (considering how the B&O used its Sharks) that one of them would be available and selected for the specific service dakotafred thinks he remembers.
Stranger things may have happened, of course: we had someone a while back who distinctly remembered being 'pushed' by a K5 on the Northern Central - he took special note of the bell hanging under the headlight. And I very clearly remember 4935 being painted in five-stripe tuscan on her 'inaugural' trip (not noticing even when Loewy 'signed' her) ... proof that sometimes you can see what you expect or want to see.
At one point in time, I believe the Sharks were kept and serviced at Cumberland. It is possible, after steam was retired, that a Shark set could have been used as a head end helper on various trains, including the Capitol Limited. In helper service, there is no MU control between road power & helper and there is no need for the helper power to have steam heat or a signal line connection.
PRR's passenger sharks were likely far from Akron in 1962, and wouldn't have been on the point of the Capitol Limited for any reason, that year or likely any other.
Thanks, K4s. It was definitely a B&O loco, so I doubtless saw it on a freight and over time conflated it with the Limited, which I also saw in station during my wee-hours layover. (I was waiting for the Night Express to Cleveland.)
dakotafred Somebody please help me: Am I imagining it with the passage of time, or can I have seen a Sharknose on the point of the westbound Capitol Limited, in Akron, Ohio, in the middle of the night, in 1962?
Somebody please help me:
Am I imagining it with the passage of time, or can I have seen a Sharknose on the point of the westbound Capitol Limited, in Akron, Ohio, in the middle of the night, in 1962?
Sure it wasn't the PRR? The PRR was the only railroad to have passenger Sharks, the B&O had only the freight version. The PRR also passed through Akron on shared tracks with the B&O as well as their own CA&C route.
BaltACDHelpers for both the Capitol and National Limiteds were attached to the head end of the train and were for the purpose of having the trains powered to operate at the allowed maximum speed on the grades. The diesels could have conquered the grades by themselves, but not at maximum authorized speeds.
Just as a note, PRR makes a distinction between power added to a train to help it get up a grade (helper) vs. power added to a train so it negotiates the grade at higher speed (snapper). Took me a while to recognize the difference, as many fans seem to think 'snapper' is PRR lingo for a helper, like 'cabin car' for caboose.
There was an amusing story about the EAs in Trains many years ago (in the early '70s, probably) about a time that one of the B&O trains had to detour over the NYC, and someone from the latter road (pilot or RFE) pompously told the B&O engineer to go faster 'as they wanted to get the train over the road'. The B&O engineer did nothing but quietly notch it out, and the NYC guy was not used to the 'smooth quiet ride' provided by the diesel, so they were iirc well over 100mph by the time the situation was realized...
WILLIAM O CRAIGIn the latest issue Borgon Tanner relates his experiences in "Steam Drama at Keyser." He describes the Pacific engines used on the B & O National Limited. But I thought that train was powered by diesels in the 1940s. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I believe I saw it leaving St. Louis behind a diesel about 1940. When did the B & O start using diesels on their premier trains?
The EA diesels were applied to both the Capitol and National Limiteds when the engines were received in 1937. On the National Limited, for some period of time, the diesels were swapped out for steam at Washington, IN. That way 2 sets of diesels could handle the assignment on a daily basis, had the diesels continued to St. Louis a 3rd set would have been required.
While great claims were made for the early diesels, I suspect real world results were slightly different. In the 40's it would not be unheard of for steam to power most any B&O train. The Capitol, even with diesels was provided a steam helper over Sand Patch grade with the helper normally being attached when the crews changed at Cumberland.
While the story stated the helper was attached at Keyser (which certainly would have been the case for freights headed to Grafton), I believe, but don't know, that the helper for the National would also have been attached at Cumberland (it makes operational sense). Helpers for both the Capitol and National Limiteds were attached to the head end of the train and were for the purpose of having the trains powered to operate at the allowed maximum speed on the grades. The diesels could have conquered the grades by themselves, but not at maximum authorized speeds.
In the latest issue Borgon Tanner relates his experiences in "Steam Drama at Keyser." He describes the Pacific engines used on the B & O National Limited. But I thought that train was powered by diesels in the 1940s. Perhaps my memory is faulty, but I believe I saw it leaving St. Louis behind a diesel about 1940. When did the B & O start using diesels on their premier trains?
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