Single and double-end interurban and streetcars

[NDG]

 

Thank You.

Forums are to in-forum.

 

[daveklepper]

I have to thank rc and CERA for restoring a bit of memory.  I remembered riding EVergreen and assumed it was 1957, because that was the year I started making client visit trips as an acoustical erngineer.  I had completely forgotten two trips in 1953-1954 for job interviews, one in the Pittsburgh area (Westinghouse).  The Korean war was on, and I ended up going on active duty November 1954.  Other than that job interview trip, I probably would not have ridden the line.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Miningman

That H-10-64 ( 7615 shown in photo) was a handsome locomotive in its own way, especially in that CN paint scheme, but why was the interurbun under wire replaced with this? I suppose that from todays point of view it seems like a mistake to do so, likely back then it was seen as a modern movement replacing old junk. Or was there another reason?

I would assume that the interurban equipment was reaching the end of its service life and new electric cars and locomotives would be non-standard and consequently expensive.

In a similar vein, London & Port Stanley also replaced its interurban equipment with standard export models (EMD G8's)

[Miningman]

NDG- Thanks so much for all this. You answered my questions and confirmed my suspicions. Terrific photos. The LCL photo..priceless! What a shame and how quickly and undignified it all ended. 

I contend that if the interurban system and even downtown trolley systems that once existed were with us today we would be much further ahead in many regards, certainly environmentally and perhaps even as a society. However, we chose not to go that way, although in some places there is some form of resurgence. Our American cousins lost a heck of lot more than we did. It is a difficult thing to understand. (Cue: Dave Klepper and GM). Somebody, somewhere knows the real story. 

Yes it is up to those of us that were there to provide information and supply details. The original Jubilee's in the 3000 series 4-4-4's even had "Canadian Pacific" on their tenders done in real 24K gold leaf. Too bad we missed out on preserving a CLC-FM H-10-64. A lot of that "we were going to save one but we thought it was the other location that was going to do it", went on, both here and in the States. How a NYC Hudson and a Niagara were not saved boggles the mind. 

I well remember, around age 9 and 10, the tracks being ripped up out of the brick streets in Hamilton, Ont.  Rode those rails many times as a young one with my mom to go wherever she had to go. The rails were curled into the air like a giant octupus, big holes in the street and smashed bricks everywhere. It was quite a sad scene, even traumatic, for me, with a strong sense of loss. I have never understood why. 

[NDG]

Thank You.

[daveklepper]

rcdrye

Last date of Evergreen was Dec 5, 1953.

 

[quote user="rcdrye"]

Last date of Evergreen was Dec 5, 1953.

[/quote above]

Then CERA is right and my memory was off.   Must have ridden the line in 1953, perhaps even the last evening of operation.   And this was the line for which the last of the double-end Pittsburgh cars were saved.

 

It was a stormy evening.  There was ice on the wire.  Lots of arcing and lights and powere occasionally off.   Had some pity for the motorman's job of changing ends in the weather (pulling one pole down and the other up.)

[Miningman]

That H-10-64 ( 7615 shown in photo) was a handsome locomotive in its own way, especially in that CN paint scheme, but why was the interurbun under wire replaced with this? I suppose that from todays point of view it seems like a mistake to do so, likely back then it was seen as a modern movement replacing old junk. Or was there another reason?

Great photos that document a time and system that fewer and fewer have seen first hand. Have we really made progress in this area?  

[NDG]

 
Thank You.

 

 

[rcdrye]

Last date of Evergreen was Dec 5, 1953.

[daveklepper]

If you have the resources, check the date of the abandonment of the Evergreen Line.    If it is 1953 or earlier, then CERA is right.  If later, it is wrong.

I think CERA is wrong.  That is the date of the last non-PCC SINGLE-END cars, (except for the arch-roof interurbans), with the double-ended still needed.

[rcdrye]

Indiana RR did some interesting remodeling of cars, taking older single enders and, in effect, swapping ends, putting bus-like doors on the new fronts for one-man operation.  This in addition to the single-ended "high speeds".

When LVT was using the ex-C&LE and ex-IRR single-ended cars they had to use the backup controller under the rear seat for backup moves in Allentown and at the P&W terminal.  The front pole had an interlock to keep speed down when it was up - obviously not used on P&W's third rail.

CERA's recent Pittsburgh book gives the end date of double-ended cars as Dec 5, 1953.

[erikem]

The C&LE Red Devils along with the F.J.&G. Brill Bullets were also single ended.

[rcdrye]

Twin Cities and Cleveland had some cars with no trolley ropes - they used a wooden hook to pull the poles down.  TCRT also liked trolley wheels long after they had fallen out of favor elsewhere - it's a lot easier to back a car with a wheel.

[aricat]

Twin City Rapid Transit with one notable exception never operated double ended streetcars. TCRT did operate a double ended streetcar for its Fort Snelling shuttle that operated on base. Otherwise, TCRT used only single ended cars during the entire time it operated streetcars. TCRT is also notable for using primarily wyes instead of loops to turn around streetcars. Twin Cities by Trolley written by John w Diers & Aaron Issacs is a superb book that that trolley fans wiil enjoy.

[daveklepper]

I had to make a correction.  Was 1951, not 1950.  Summer 1950, I was a cammp counselor at Camp With-a-wind at Honesdale, PA,north of Carbondale.  Did get to ride Scranton Transit, Willksbaarre Rys, Laral Line interBigurban, and D&H steam Scranton - Carbondale.

1951 was ROTC summer camp, and 1952 student engineer at EMD LaGrange

1951: We did not take the opportunity to ride M&SC.  Big mistake.

[NDG]

 
Merci.

[daveklepper]

Thanks.  Brings back the memory of that Friday in Montreal.

Note that 2004 was also a single-end car converted to double-end, and it is the fomer rear that is in the picture, identacle to 2001 at Branford (Shore Line TM).   The original front end has higher windows.

I had also visited Montreal on a weekend pass when I was an ROTC cadet at Fort Monmouth, summer, 1951.  A Georgia Tech student, Fulton Clark Douglas, had a fairly new Chevy and suggested we share expenses and drive to and from.  We rode many of the streetcar lines running then, including Cartieville, both sides of Mount Royal, and of course took the Golden Chariot open-car tour.  Real bus conversion was still in the future at the time.  Clark (went by his middle name) was a year older than I, between Jr. and Sr. years, while I was between Sophomore and Junior at MIT.

[Miningman]

Great stuff there NDG....we all lost so much so quickly it was hard to get your head around it all. Thanks for this.

[NDG]

 

Thank You.

[daveklepper]

Philadelphia still operated the WWI, paid for by the Navy, double-end "Hog Island" end-door one-man lighteights, after WWII, until all shuttle lines quit.    And Fairmount Park operated double-end open cars on its own system until sometime after WWII.  They could have been single end and run OK, but I believe they were double-end.

[daveklepper]

Pittsburgh's Evergreen line was the only downtown line that never used PCCs.  It ran due north and was a cutback on the Harmoney interurban to Butler (and eventually via connections to Buffalo or Erie),  abandoned before WWII.   Its north end was simply a crossover between the two tracks.   It continued operating into 1957 and perhaps a year later.  I rode it.  About ten low-floor deck-roof lightweight double-end one-man cars were required for rush hour.  Just after WWII, I would guess Pittsburgh still had between 150 and 200 double-end cars.  They provided all service on the three Washington, PA`local lines, a total of about 20 cars.  There were about twelve shuttle lines of the type you mentioned, some like Homewood - Homesdale were quite long and required several cars.

[daveklepper]

I rode that line you described the day before the last day of operation of the Quebec Montmorency Div. CN interurban.  Friday riding last two Montreal streetcar lines, the one you described using double-end cars and another, using single-end, both isolated from each other and not downtown. Saturday was spent riding the interurban after an overnight Montreal - Quebec trip, Sunday riding the now closed for regular service interurban fan trip, two round trips with different equipment.  Then an evening back to Montreal and the Red Wing overnight back to Boston.

Car 2001 was originally a one-man single-end safety car but altered to be double-end.  the window design at one end is different than the other.  It is operated at the Shore Line Trolley Msuem in Connecticut.

[NDG]

 

Thank You.

[rcdrye]

Cleveland was all single-end after the last of the "dinkies" (double-ended shuttles) were discontinued in 1940.  The single-end PCCs fit right in.  Pittsburgh Railways retained a few low-floor double enders for shuttle cars until around 1950 retiring them with the shuttle lines.  Philadelphia's "Nearsides" predated WWII (and WWI) but were single-enders nonetheless.  The most common pre-PCC single-enders were variations on the Peter Witt design (Chicago, Baltimore, Rochester, Gary IN).  Cincinnati was all single-end cars due to the double-pole current collection, which required loops or wyes in any case.

[daveklepper]

Most streetcar and interurban lines operated only double-end equipment that did not require loops at the end of the line.  Interurbans included the three Insull lines, except of course for the North Shore's observation cars, Pacific Electric, notable for double-end mu PCCs, Dallas, with its double-end PCCs, Scranton, Wilksbarre, Altoona, Third Avenue Transit in New York, New Bedford. Providence, Connecticut Company, Ottawa, Red Arrow and Philadelphia and Western, Providence, Portland, OR,  Baltimore and Annapolis, West Penn, Yakima, Chico and Marysville-Uba City on SN, Key System, Atlanta, Omaha and Council Bluffs, Des Moines, Marion, Fort Collins, naming those that come to mind that operated after WWII.

 

Illinois Terminal is a special case, with some single-end interurban cars, but all local St. Louis-area suburban equipment double-end, including its eight PCCs. Lehigh Valley Transit had only double-end local cars but many single-end interurban cars.  Ditto Waterloo, Ceder Falls, and Northern.

 

Then there are those that used exclusively double-end equipment until buying PCCs.  Los Angeles Railways, Johnstown, Boston, San Diego, San Francisco, Cincinnati(?).or in the case of Atlantic City, Brilliners.

 

And there are those that had a mixture of double-end and single-end equipment and then used single-end PCCs.  Montreal, Vancouver, Philadelphia, Brooklyn, Baltimore, Washington, Birmingham, Pittsburgh, with the single-end non-PCC car usually the most recent before the PCCs.

 

And those that never used PCCs, but the more modern cars were single-end.  Indianapolis, Richmond (very few single-end, only one line), Louisville (?), Laural Line interurban (few wood double-enders for the Nay Aug Park branch).

Pure single-end operations with PCCs and other single-end cars, Cleveland, Detroit, Shaker Heights (a few second-hand double-end cars, second-hand did not last long).

 

 

Exclusively single-end without PCCs: cannot think of any at the moement, but must have been some.  Restricting this to lines that operated after WWII.