I know that in 1960 (or thereabouts) Great Northern combined the Western Star and the Fast Mail between the Twin Cities and Seattle. This often lead to the Western Star having 20+ cars, usually 2/3rds of which were baggage, RPO, express or other 'head end' cars. I was wondering, did the CB&Q run the whole train like that to and from Chicago, or did they break it up into two trains? I always assumed they just took the whole train, but I know the Burlington had a fast mail between the Twin Cities and Chicago for many years, so it could have been they separated the head end cars from the 'regular' people-carrying cars (which might have been added to an existing Burlington passenger train?)
A large proportion of GN's mail destined to Chicago was carried on Milwaukee Road trains. Cars were exchanged at St Paul Union Depot. Milwaukee ran them in the overnight Fast Mail, and sometimes other trains.
The westbound Western Star did operate on the Fast Mail's schedule out of Minneapolis after The GN's Fast Mail was eliminated. The Western Star connected with the CB&Q's Blackhawk and also picked up mail from the Milwaukee Road in St Paul. It should be remembered that the Western Star operated at various times over both the GN's St Cloud and Willmar lines.The eastbound Western Star terminated in St Paul, not Chicago. Passengers to Chicago connected to the Afternoon Zephyr in Minneapolis.Mail cars would connect with the Milwaukee Road in St Paul. The Milwaukee Road carried a subtantail number of head end cars on its Morning Hiawatha during the 1950's.
Thanks guys, I do recall that the Milwaukee and GN did a lot of mail business - I seem to recall an ad in the GNRHS quarterly for a Milwaukee mail car that was commonly seen on GN trains.
However, I'm still a little confused about the passengers - did they have to change trains to the Zephyr, or were the GN cars added to the Zephyr? I did find a note regarding the Western Star 1966 schedule (link below) saying "The eastbound Western Star operates combined with the Afternoon Zephyr between Minneapolis-St. Paul and Chicago." and "The westbound Western Star operates combined with the Mainstreeter and the Black Hawk between Chicago and St. Paul-Minneapolis."
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track7/westernstar196607.html
My suggestion is to read the John Straus, Jr.. book on the Western Star/Fast Mail. Mr. Straus was a GN Passenger Representative that traveled with the Empire Builder. He writes from an excellent point of view as he was there. His books are excellent and Mr. Straus compares the GN trains to the NP, Milw, etc. I do remember the days when the Western Star/Fast Mail was about 20 cars or so. The head end of the train was about 1/4 mile from the GN depot in Minneapolis. The early 1960's were a great time for passenger trains in the Twin Cities. At times the Western Star used the Minneapolis to St. Cloud to Fargo line to balance the St. Cloud crews--two trains up to Fargo would need two crews back to avoid deadheading. As far as I know, few if any passenger carrying cars were switched from the Black Hawk to either the Mainstreeter (NP) or Western Star (GN).
Ed Burns
Happily retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis.
The schedule from streamlinerschedules.com shows the through car activity. Two 16 duplex Rmt 4 DBR cars ran between Chicago and Seattle - one year round, the other summer only. They went westbound - along with coaches - in CB&Q's Blackhawk, joining the rest of the Western Star in St. Paul. Eastbound the cars returned in the Blackhawk to Chicago - but the Western Star arrived in time to make a connection (in Minneapolis) to the Afternoon Zephyr, so coach passengers were expected to change. Sleeping car passengers could either change to the Zephyr (which offered a parlor-observation) or they could stay with the car in St. Paul, leaving about eight hours later on the Blackhawk. The coaches went back with the sleepers to restart the cycle. The Western Star's two sleepers made up about half of the Blackhawk's Pullman space, the other cars usually one of CB&Q's 6 section, 6 roomette 4 DBR cars and one or two CB&Q 10 Rmt 6 DBR cars.
SP&S had local Spokane-Portland cars, including sleepers.
Thanks for the information guys. I'm not familiar with the Strauss book, what is the title? I know he wrote some of the Four Ways West pictorial books on GN.
Try contacting your local library's catalog and start with "author" John Straus(s), Junior. He wrote approximately six books on the various Great Northern passenger trains.
NP Eddie Try contacting your local library's catalog and start with "author" John Straus(s), Junior. He wrote approximately six books on the various Great Northern passenger trains. Ed Burns
[quote user="rcdrye"]
No through cars to the Western Star in 1969. The Pioneer Limited was still running - its last run was Sept 7, 1970. I'm not sure if the sleepers came off before the train did.
then the reason it was an NP car occasionally is the same for why an NP car showed up Chicago - Colorado Springs, they were in a pool with the Q's cars on a first-in, first-out basis.
I think the sleeper did come off the Pioneer sometime in 1969.
August 1970 OG lists Duplex Roomettes, Roomettes and Bedrooms in the Pioneer Limited's equipment list, so it looks like MILW's 8-6-4 sleepers stayed with the train to the end.
Could the GN/NP sleepers on the Black Hawk carry local Chicago - Minneapolis passengers or were they confined to the CB&Q sleepers on that route?
May have been discontinued for a short period and reinstated after complaints. Or just sidelined for a day or two.
Yes.[quote user="tomsimpson"]
Best place to look for books by John Strauss is to visit the Four Ways West site; or www.abebooks.com or Google search.
On a personal note I feel that Amtrak should eliminate the Empire Builder name and use Western Star. Better yet, continue the EB and add the Star to the route! You may Tar & Feather me boys but please don't make me eat crow!
Trinity River Bottoms Boomer Better yet, continue the EB and add the Star to the route!
Better yet, continue the EB and add the Star to the route!
One of the problems Amtrak has getting passengers is that many routes only have one train a day. Pre-Amtrak, the private railroads usually ran several trains over the same route, but at different times of day. If the Builder comes thru your home town at 3 a.m., that's the only time you can catch it. If there was a second train coming thru at say 1 p.m., it would probably be the one you'd choose.
Plus, I believe the Western Star for much of it's time ran on an alternate routings in some areas, serving towns that now aren't served by Amtrak.
Trinity River Bottoms Boomer Best place to look for books by John Strauss is to visit the Four Ways West site; or www.abebooks.com or Google search.
Buying the book is no problem, except that as yet no one has told me which title I'm looking for, just the author's name! There isn't a book called "The Western Star" by anyone.
BTW, does anyone know how the Western Star was handled earlier, from it's inception until it was merged with the Fast Mail? Was the entire train sent to Chicago using Burlington engines, or was it like the sixties, where just the sleepers continued on as part of a CB&Q train?
Mr. Straus(s) authored about six or so books on GN (and other) passenger service. Each title will tell you which train(s) he is writing about. One topic was the "Empire Builder" and another book addressed the mini-streamliners of Lines East (St. Paul to Winnipeg, Duluth, etc.).
[quote user="wjstix"]
I suggest that you visit the Four Ways West website. They should have all the books that John Strauss, Jr. authored. Some maybe out of print, but you will have the titles at hand.
WJSTX:
Please call me on my cell phone 1-763-234-9306. I can help you over the phone. The Western Star/Fast Mail had many cars and was routed different ways over the years.
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