BN Passenger trains- what were they like?

[KBCpresident]

Did anyone here ride BN's passenger trains?

IF so, can you tell me if BN marketed their new identity to passengers after they took over? Was the BN Empire Builder for example, diffferent than GN's empire Builder. When BN re-painteed a railcar's exeterior did they redecorate teh inside at all? Did they slap the BN logo inside anywhere? Did the conductor's hats have a greeen BN emblem?

Was BN enthusiastic about passenger service (as enthusiastic as they could be anyhow?) It seems like they kept running quite a few of them after the merger (at least five that I know of.)

I know they only ran trains for a year, but there is surprisingly little about BN passenger trains online, nothing with these answers anyway.

Thanks!

[daveklepper]

BN's passenger service lasted only a year before Amtrak and the loss of many of its trains, so lack of stories and information is understandable.  GN had not even finished repainting its passenger equipment from green and orange to sky blue when the merger took place, and  never did complete repainting to green and white of ex-GN, SP&S, and NP cars before Amtrak.  From what I recall, things did not change much during that year.  The Cal Zephyr had already gone, replaced by three--a-week "California Service," really an extension of the Nebraska Zephyr to Salt Lake City with a van or taxi connection to Ogden, and one or both each way of the Twin Zephyrs was combined with the through GN and NP trains.  I think the overnight Blackhawk between Chicago and the Twins went off during this period and may have already lost its slumbercoach, with no other sleeper, and the KC Zephyr may have been cut back to Quincy.  That, the California Service, and the Denver Zephyr, which was the most beuatiful, most cared for, and sharpest looking of the fleet, the only one still with an obs at the rear, were all stainless steel or painted stainless steel (some ex-C&NW smooth-side lightweight coaches), but the trains to the Twins could have four or five different color schemes.   Food was good, not quite the UP and AT&SF, but good, and there certainly was no attempt to insult passengers by poor service as was occsasionally encountered on PC, with the exception of the Broadway.

The Chicago commuter service was already all stainless steel gallery cars, E units and an occasional GP7, and I think conversion to head-end power withoiut the need of the generator cars, plus push-pull operation with the locomotives always on the West end of the train, had already be implemented.   The head-end power requirement separated the E units in suburban service from those still providing steam heat for long distance trains, the latter including units from NP and GN and SP&S, of course.  I think only E-8's were on the suburban trains, with E-8's, E-7's and E-5's on the long distant trains.

I recall no attempts to modify the interior of any of the passenger cars.  Indeed, I remember a meal in an ex-NP diner with the Nomad Zing and Zang symbal still prominent.

[rcdrye]

I rode the DZ Chicago to Denver in late March 1970. Late and dirty compared to earlier years - though the station crews were friendly and helpful. DZ obs was running mid-train.  On the other hand, the return to Chicago on the UP/Milw City of Denver/Everywhere (except SF - off day) was later and dirtier.

Suburban conversion to HEP and the rebuilt E8s/E9s was done after the POS agreement between BN and RTA in 1974.  BNSF continues to treat Metra well

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the correction,  Memory confused by later trips to Downers Grove on the race-track.   My memories of the DZ in 1970 are better.

But did not the Burlington Northern start painting the suburban service E-8s and E-9's in green and black with white letters, but not those in long-distance service, which remained silver, red and black trim?   In 1970?  

[rcdrye]

Without looking at photos from the era, I'm pretty sure that most if not all of the E8s/E9s remained in silver until they returned from M-K.  There was at least one E9 (9983 ex-CB&Q 9988B) that got the BN "zebra" scheme minus the "hockey stick" in black on silver.  Quite a few BN E8s and E9s were in Amtrak service in 1971-1973, and 21 E8s were eventually bought by Amtrak. The first batch of rebuilds (E8s 9900-9908 ) were done by M-K after the WSMTD (West Suburban Mass Transit District) bought them from BN in 1973.  The second batch may have had some members that just got HEP generators before rebuilding, but all were eventually rebuilt by M-K in 1976 (9910-9925, no 9909).

Some ex-GN E7's did get the green scheme, either nose-only or a near full paint job.

[daveklepper]

You might also wish to comment on the smooth-side silver CB&Q ex-C&NW cars.  My understanding is that the C&NW had a surplus of single-level lightweight long-distance coaches after re-equipping the Flambau and Penninsular 400's with gallery LD coaches, and loosing the UP through trains.  At the same time, the CB&Q was still using some LD heavyweights, the Blackhawk overnighter being one occasional example.  

[rcdrye]

GN also bought some 44-seat coaches from UP which went into service either in GN blue or BN Green with the interlocked UP linoleum floors untouched.

[KBCpresident]

I'm surprised BN felt it worth it to begin repainting its passenger equiptment. Did they stop painting when they heard about Amtrak? Then again, BN (from what I had heard) seemed to be a bit trigger happy in the painting booth. They had, what, their whole fleet repainted by 79?

[Anonymous]

Indeed, there are many unanswered questions that remain regarding BN on M-Day and the early months thereafter.  For example, I still don't comprehend the fact that Great Northern went to the expense of creating the new Big Sky Blue image, financially investing in the project (paint publicity labor), when it was clear that the BN merger was as good as approved? 

Ironically, Burlington took delivery of new constructed locomotives and freight cars delivered in Cascade Green, while many older cars got repainted green in the process as well.  Ditto on Northern Pacific.  Out in the Great Pacific Northwest, Spokane Portland & Seattle received new box cars in green, while down in Texas at least one Ft. Worth & Denver outside braced wood caboose received the green scheme too! 

Item: Only one diesel switcher rostered on the entire Q system received Chinese Red, which was an NW2 on subsidiary FW&D!  I'm still surprised to this day that dedicated fans didn't dub it The Lone Ranger!

Early BN is one of the most interesting railroads to model in any scale from Z to G, be it the Rainbow fleet, consisting of motive power, passenger and freight cars, wood reefers, stock cars (retaining their GN NP CB&Q reporting marks) as well as MofW equipment, the possiblities and selections are unlimited! 

In the mid-70s a record bumper crop of wheat caught the railroads by surprise  resulting in a severe shortage of covered hoppers.  BN applied plywood paneling to the interior of the stock car fleet so they, like hundreds of older 40 ft. box cars, could be coopered for grain loading.  I handled many of them while employed as a switchman on ATSF in Dallas, waybilled to Galveston for export.  A good number of the cars had rotted floors and grain that spilled onto the tracks down below was a real treat for Big D pigeons! 

Slightly off subject, but on ATSF between E. Dallas Yard and the Trinity River Bottoms, was the Peavy Corp. flour mill.  Bulk flour was shipped in covered hoppers and coopered box cars.  Before the EPA started enforcing pollution laws, sweaty switchmen as well as the dude responsible for loading the cars always got covered with the white sticky stuff.  We dubbed the kid who worked the PV loading dock The Pillsbury Dough Boy!

I imigine most of you are in possession of books and/or videos on the early BN era in your collection of railroadiana, but before I spend any $$$ to obtain any, a list of the best would be appreciated.

My Texas Mess completed, y'all have a Safe & Happy Labor Day!  

[MidlandMike]

Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

... 

In the mid-70s a record bumper crop of wheat caught the railroads by surprise  resulting in a severe shortage of covered hoppers.  BN applied plywood paneling to the interior of the stock car fleet so they, like hundreds of older 40 ft. box cars, could be coopered for grain loading.  I handled many of them while employed as a switchman on ATSF in Dallas, waybilled to Galveston for export.  A good number of the cars had rotted floors and grain that spilled onto the tracks down below was a real treat for Big D pigeons! 

...

Please tell me that those stock cars had plywood installed on the floors to at least give some semblance of sanitary grain handling.

[Anonymous]

MidlandMike: Gads, putting on my Thinking Cap 40 plus years ago, still put a severe strain on my brain, but I do remember that the BN family stock cars that moved through ATSF E. Dallas Yard were sealed and waybilled Galveston.  I never handled any empties that made the return move.  They were probably handed to the FW&D at Houston for the return trip north.  I'm sure they had plywood floors but the grain still seeped out along the sides of the cars and at the doorways.

There was so much export grain being sent to the Gulf ports that all of the railroads got a share of the business.  Katy, for example, moved grain in stock cars and 40 ft. box cars, many of the box cars still proudly proclaiming "Katy Serves the Southwest" on their sides.   Katy's stock cars were outfitted like BN had done with the GN/NP/Q cars.  They were x-RI and wore M-K-T reporting marks and peeling black paint.  The Katy's Northwestern District and subsidiary BM&E in the Oklahoma Panhandle were "Dirt Track" railroads and couldn't handle the new 3 and 4-bay covered hoppers due to weight restrictions on the lines.

Personally, from a modeling standpoint, BN in the 70s are the best years to model!  From shiny new steel box cars to the ratty old wood stock cars, peeling yellow painted wooden BN WFEX reefers, F units running off their last miles and high horsepower SD45s, U33Cs, and C636s, anything goes....Everywhere West....and across the US too for that matter! 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

The West Suburban Mass Transit District was one of several transit districts in the Chicago area that predated the RTA.  Others were the Chicago South Suburban Mass Transit District (IC), Northwest Suburban Mass Transit District (MILW West line) and North Suburban Mass Transit District (MILW North line).  Their purpose was to provide funding for new equipment which they purchased and leased to the operating railroads. 

[JimJCMO]

While I was never on the BN pre-Amtrak, I did ride one train from Chicago to Seattle shortly after Amtrak. There were no Amtrak cars and of the four F-units only one was in Amtrak livery. It was pretty much as it was before Amtrak. The cars were tired looking. The sky blue GN coaches had linoleum floors and very large bathroom lounges. One had a smoking lounge. The CB&Q and NP cars were unchanged, but threadbare. The two BN painted cars were unchanged inside. The crew seemed dispirited - not grumpy - but as if all wind was out of their sails. The Amtrak food was pretty basic so I stayed with sandwiches to avoid disappointment. On the other hand there were three domes - two coaches and one lounge. Time keeping was "relaxed" and we arrived 60 minutes past the advertised. Oh well - I was a teenager with no deadlines.

[NP Eddie]

ALL:

The BN hosted passenger service for about 14 months until AMTRAK took over. Per Earl Currie (A CBQ-BN man) a uniform committee (for passenger crews) was considered, but dis-banded due to AMTRAK having their own uniforms. 

Wayner's "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists", page 241, lists 21 passenger cars re-painted BN green. "The intention of Amtrak to renumber all of its acquired cars to its own master scheme caused the Burlington Northern to discontinue renumber late in 1971". 

Regarding locomotives, Del Grosso's "Burlington Northern Railroad Locomotives 1970-1996 is my reference to all BN locomotives. The former GN (10) E7A's and one SPS E7A were re-numbered but not repainted as they were retired  in 1971. Some X-CBQ E7A's were repainted with a green nose and silver flanks. As far as the X-CBQ E8A's and E9A's, one would need to see pictures on a unit by unit basis for repainting. Those sold to the WSMTD (West Suburban Mass Transit District--now METRA were re-built and re-numbered into the low 9900 series. 

Hope this answers any questions, it not please contact me off list at [e-mail]

Ed Burns

Happily retired 38 year railroader.

[wjstix]

Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

Indeed, there are many unanswered questions that remain regarding BN on M-Day and the early months thereafter.  For example, I still don't comprehend the fact that Great Northern went to the expense of creating the new Big Sky Blue image, financially investing in the project (paint publicity labor), when it was clear that the BN merger was as good as approved? 

In 1967 it wasn't clear the merger would go through, or would be blocked as had been in the earlier attempts going back 50+ years. IIRC the merger was originally going to happen in 1967 or 1968, but got set back due to some litigation in 1966 or early '67. GN decided it would go ahead and continue as if the merger wasn't going to happen.

As it turned out, the extra time allowed the railroads to coordinate things much better than they would have had it happened a year or two earlier.

[aricat]

I remember that the North Coast Limited after the BN merger usually had unrepainted NP locomotives(F7's or FP7's) working the train until the creation of Amtrak. I would see the North Coast Limited every morning before work in Minneapolis circa 1970-1971. I do recall the seeing some BN passenger coaches in the consist, but most often the train looked much as it did before the BN merger.

I noticed to that in Chicago in 1970, after the merger, CB&Q locomotives were always in change of the commuter operations. I am not certain when the BN began to repaint their E8's and E9's cascade green. I remember seeing a poster in Hinsdale Illinois in the summer of 1970 saying "land of the Burlington" and people in those communities really identified with the Burlington; not that new railroad with its headquarters in St Paul called Burlington Northern. BN did take pride in its Chicago commuter operations and BN employees worked the trains until METRA took over. I recall in 1983 that METRA did take over the former Rock Island commuter trains in Chicago, while BN continued to operate their own trains and wore BN uniforms. I use the word uniform in a generic sense, I don't know if these were BN designed uniforms.

After the creation of Amtrak, passenger crews of Amtrak trains operating on BN began to wear uniforms that identified them as Amtrak employees, one crewman wore an Amtrak pin on his cap. The the Empire Builder and North Coast Hiawatha Milwaukee Road crews, however, still wore their their Milwaukee uniforms.