No they could not have survived without government bailout.
Regardless of the route map now, and the similarities to what the route map would have looked like if N&W bought out PRR during the 60's, and if Chessie had bought out the NYC lines...regardless of all that has or could have happened...
The simple facts are that Penn Central failed to pay the money they owed to especially the Reading but to all other adjoining railroads. So for this reason Reading was bankrupt by 1970, and all new motive power was painted in the green scheme with yellow stripes to denote its purchase or lease under bankruptcy.
Without US government bailout funding, and the deregulation that came a decade later, there is just no way at all that E-L or Reading, or the others, would have survived on their own. I don't believe there is any economic scenario that would have worked out, and flooding resulting from Hurricane Agnes during 1972 made a bad financial situation much worse.
Also, as a civil (highway) engineer, I will also point out that from the very day the PA Turnpike NE Extension was partly opened in 1956, the Lehigh Valley never showed a year ending profit again as reported by Morning Sun Books in their yearly guide of the LV. Adjacent railroads like the CNJ were similarly affected. We took citizens' toll dollars to build a directly parallel, competing mode of transportation that effectively wiped out the Lehigh Valley and other adjacent railroads. The railroad rights-of-way in those areas have been vacated or turned into trails. Major portions of the LV and others are completely gone, with virtually no trace of ever having existed.
Pennsylvania had more route miles of railroad than any other state (you can look it up) and unfortunately some were near duplicate lines. Once the anthracite coal era ended, there was no way that all of them could have remained viable for the long term. The major financial mistakes (and crooked management lining their golden parachutes) committed by PRR and NYC in planning for east-west passenger trains after WWII that, by 1947, an honest accounting would show was a waste of money, only exacerbated the problems already faced in the region.
John
BLS53- Of course not... also not a fair assumption.
Deregulation and freedom to set rates and an equal and fair level playing field. Not imposing bone crushing taxes and working hand in hand with commuter subsidies and equipment capitalization for what essentially are social requirenments. Also end to end mergers were discouraged in favour of side by side mergers. Ironically what we have today "sort of" mimicks some of what should have happened in the first place i.e. NYC/C&O, PRR/N&W.
A great deal of unnecessary pain could have been avoided quite easily really without so much loss of so much.
The EL suffered severe storm damage to both the Erie side and Lackawanna side (from the same storm, which really made a mess of things.) When Conrail first introduced doublestack trains in the 80's, The Erie route was used since it was the only line that had the clearances. (Remember, the Erie was originally built to 6' gauge) When Susquehanna started running doublestacks the Erie was their route. I think, with better management and less storm damage the EL could have survived. Ironically there was talk of merging EL with NW. Today, the EL is operated mostly by NS.
Miningman The question was "could these roads have survived" not what became of them...however I understand the reasons for the answers given. I still am trying to figure out how such important, strategic, well established railroads with incredible assets providing such valuable services to a dynamic economy and successful economic system nearly all failed so quickly and so miserably. The railroads role in the successful role in winning WWII was truly incredible. Their thanks was a big middle finger from governments and the public in general. Something like a blue chip sure thing like Reading fell apart as part of a series of dominos. I do believe Erie-Lackawanna and Reading, given a few years of "bridge" financing and common sense, along with many others such as Milwaukee could be viable Class II's today, or even better. I quess too big to fail did not apply to the Pennsy or NYC. Too much greed and pillaging from long gone wanna be tycoons. It is what it is today and it's all vastly different but ...Yes...I think they could have made it through.
The question was "could these roads have survived" not what became of them...however I understand the reasons for the answers given. I still am trying to figure out how such important, strategic, well established railroads with incredible assets providing such valuable services to a dynamic economy and successful economic system nearly all failed so quickly and so miserably. The railroads role in the successful role in winning WWII was truly incredible. Their thanks was a big middle finger from governments and the public in general. Something like a blue chip sure thing like Reading fell apart as part of a series of dominos. I do believe Erie-Lackawanna and Reading, given a few years of "bridge" financing and common sense, along with many others such as Milwaukee could be viable Class II's today, or even better. I quess too big to fail did not apply to the Pennsy or NYC. Too much greed and pillaging from long gone wanna be tycoons. It is what it is today and it's all vastly different but ...Yes...I think they could have made it through.
Are you suggesting the government should have somehow stymied the progress made in the aviation and automotive industrys, as a "Thank you for your service" to the railroads? The railroads as they existed in that era, simply became obsolete.
Agnes was a particularlly devestating storm in the Susquehanna watershed. Damages, especially to railroad facilities that historically have been built on the banks of rivers to get the best grades that 19th Century engineering could provide were severe and widespread. I don't know the specific damages the EL encountered. I do know damages my carrier encountered in a more narrowly defined geographical area - three subdivisions were practically obliterated from the map. Over a period of 3 years two of the subdivisions were reconstructed and placed back in operation. The third subdivision was sold off to a short line operator who had it 90% back in operation when another hurricane/tropical storm damaged all three subdivisions again. The two my carrier had restored were back in operation 6 months after the 2nd storm. The short line subdivision took another two years to be fully operational. I can only imagine what the EL damages were in Northern Pennsylvania and Southern New York with these storms.
I know my carrier got some form of insurance settlement when it came time to rebuild it's facilities after Katrina. I am not aware of any insurance that may have been in place at the time of Agnes for any of the carriers.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
bill613a Erie-Lackawana might have been able to survive had it not been for Hurricane Agnes in the summer of 1972.
Erie-Lackawana might have been able to survive had it not been for Hurricane Agnes in the summer of 1972.
That implies a situation not unlike Chicago Aurora & Elgin after WW2. Making enough money to maintain operations and pay down debt but not enough money to modernize or provide for the unexpected.
The roads that became a part of ConRail could not have survived on their own into today as their traffic bases had collapsed - Rust Belt and manufacturing leaving the Northeastern states. Without sustaining traffic bases a carrier doesn't have the financial resources to continue operation.
Miningman The question was "could these roads have survived" not what became of them...however I understand the reasons for the answers given. I still am trying to figure out how such important, strategic, well established railroads with incredible assets providing such valuable services to a dynamic economy and successful economic system nearly all failed so quickly and so miserably.
The question was "could these roads have survived" not what became of them...however I understand the reasons for the answers given. I still am trying to figure out how such important, strategic, well established railroads with incredible assets providing such valuable services to a dynamic economy and successful economic system nearly all failed so quickly and so miserably.
The Reading lost its western connection when CSX acquired WM. The Reading and Northern survives on the northern part of the former Reading along with parts of the former LV. However, like the NYS&W and parts of the former E-L in western NY, the surviving Reading would be a one-train-a-day type of operation.
.., and yes I understand Conrail was a "too big to fail" response to PennCentral but I'm talking well before. When NYC and Pennsy existed. Some very simple tax relief and legislation levelling the playing field in transportation and a big recognition of strategic importance along with a few favours owed for building a nation and winning wars could have saved them. There is nothng silly about the railroads existing today as they did in 1950 all constantly seeking viable routes through cooperative agreements. In fact the competition would be incredible and would be like draft day in the NFL annually with expiring and renewing run through's providing much like we have today.
The Reading is mostly NS, including the main New York-Harrisburg route ("Queen of the Valley"). E-L had some sections worth retaining like the Southern Tier in New York, but was of less value as a through route, since it missed most population and industrial centers in Ohio and Indiana. Some of the CSX-used routes are Conrail Shared Assets.
The Reading, today, is an essential part of CSX, as it was an essential part of Conrail, allowing freight to stay off the NEC and Keystone.
I was reading about Reading in the latest issue of Classic Trains. I noticed that the route map resembled a modern Class II which got me tinking: Can anyone think of a situation in which the Reading could have survived the 1970s intact and independent? How about the Erie-lackawanna? I know NYSW was almost part of conrail but was salvaged in some way. Could Reading potentially have survived in a similar state, and be operating today as a Class II?
The Beaverton, Fanno Creek & Bull Mountain Railroad
"Ruby Line Service"
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