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Crews "Outlawing"

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Posted by ValleyX on Friday, August 7, 2015 10:04 PM

wjstix

Last few replies touched on the point I was going to make - in the steam days, it was 16 hours, not 12 like now. So you had a longer time to work before you had to stop, so it would be less likely to occur.

BTW it would exceedingly rare for the engineer and fireman to sleep or eat in the caboose. They normally went to a diner to eat, and slept in a RR hotel, YMCA etc. while the Brakeman and Conductor ate and slept in the caboose. Engineers and Firemen in steam days were one group, Brakemen and Conductors another. Each group was in a different union, different seniority roster, and didn't really mix all that much.

 

That's absolutely true, those fellows were frequently at war with one another.  

As for getting rest while deadheading, listened to an old conductor ask the dispatcher to go eat whilst stuck somewhere.  He'd deadheaded to the other end, considered to be rested when he got there, and started back.  When the dispatcher told him he couldn't, he reminded the dispatcher that while he, the conductor, had been stuck on a train, the dispatcher had gone home, gone to bed, got up, did normal life things, and then returned to work 16 hours later.  Yet, the conductor and his crew couldn't go eat.  

It was a rough life back in the 16 hour days, outlawed or otherwise.

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, June 5, 2015 4:10 PM

Last few replies touched on the point I was going to make - in the steam days, it was 16 hours, not 12 like now. So you had a longer time to work before you had to stop, so it would be less likely to occur.

BTW it would exceedingly rare for the engineer and fireman to sleep or eat in the caboose. They normally went to a diner to eat, and slept in a RR hotel, YMCA etc. while the Brakeman and Conductor ate and slept in the caboose. Engineers and Firemen in steam days were one group, Brakemen and Conductors another. Each group was in a different union, different seniority roster, and didn't really mix all that much.

Stix
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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, June 1, 2015 1:30 PM

jeffhergert

Crews can't work after 12 hours, but they are still on the clock until finally released.  The pay for the time between relieved from performing service and the final release is called "Tow-In."  At least in my part of the railroad world.

Jeff

The FRA calls it 'Limbo Time' and employees are allowed to accumulate no more than 30 Hours Limbo Time per calendar month.
The most recent tweeks in the Hours of Service Law were in response to the Brotherhood's complaints about the HOS law as it was previously implemented.  They wanted more rest between assignments and they received 10 hours undistrubed rest from the final relief time; add to that the normal 2 hour call to duty and crews are off a minimum of 12 hours between on duty periods.  The brotherhoods complained about the time it took the carriers to get HOS crews to their final tieup point - thus the Limbo Time regulations.  If one has accumulated the maximum of 30 hours Limbo Time - on my carrier the employee is held out of service until the following month when a new Limbo Time counter commences.

The upshot of the revised HOS requirements is that T&E earning potentials has been decreased in excess of 20% each month.  Be careful what you ask for - you may get it!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, May 30, 2015 8:02 PM

Road overtime was (and many places still is) based on time and miles.  Originally it was based on the 100 mile day. Overtime began when the number of miles divided by 12.5 exceeded the time on duty.  For 100 miles or less, this was 8 hours.  The longer the run (over 100 miles) the longer before you went on overtime.  For example, a 125 mile run wouldn't begin overtime until 10 hours on duty.

Currently the basic day is now 130 miles for those still being paid on a miliage basis.  Overtime begins when miles run divided by 16.25 exceeds the hours on duty.  The two runs my pool assignment can work are 144 miles and 161 miles.  On the 144 mile run overtime begins at 8 hrs 52 mins.  For the 161 mile run it begins at 9 hrs 54 mins.  We have one run out of my terminal thats 197 miles, overtime beginning at 12 hrs 7 mins.  Crews can't work after 12 hours, but they are still on the clock until finally released.  The pay for the time between relieved from performing service and the final release is called "Tow-In."  At least in my part of the railroad world.

Jeff  

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, May 29, 2015 11:06 AM

As I recall, by the fifties, if you did not make it to your terminal within the 16 hours, your were paid overtime.

Johnny

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Posted by DS4-4-1000 on Friday, May 29, 2015 9:09 AM

pajrr

These days one can usually find a train stopped somewhere, tied down with engines idling, waiting for a replacement crew to come along because the crew reached their hours of service limit. Sometime a train can sit most of a day or longer. Was this common during steam days? My thinking is that it was not, since steam locomotives and crews were changed at division points, about 100 - 150 miles apart. These days railroads seem to try to get every inch that they can out of crews. Does anyone know what it was like back in steam days? Leaving a steam engine simmering somewhere unattended for long periods of time with no one around, in my mind at least, is asking for trouble. Are there less crews these days, being asked to do more work, just like with any other companies these days? Any info would be appreciated.

My great grandfather was an engineer on the PRR Lewistown to Sunbury line in the 1910s and 1920s.  According to him in those days you were on duty until you made your terminal, whether it took 4 hours or 40.  Also, you were paid one day's pay for the run even if the run took more than 24 hours.
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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 11:17 PM

NorthWest

In the steam era, railroads were far more scheduled, so there was a more reliable indicator of how far a crew could get before outlawing. Of course, trains didn't always run on schedule.

Probably the biggest factor was steam locomotive limits. Early locomotives needed minor repairs every hundred miles or so; crew districts reflected this even after technology improved greatly.

Passenger trains were scheduled and likely to run near their scheduled time.  Freight was a whole 'nother story.  Getting recrews to HOS freight trains on passenger lines was fairly 'straight forward' - getting recrews to trains that weren't on passenger served lines was exceedingly difficult as there was not the other forms of surface transportation that we take for granted these days.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by NorthWest on Tuesday, May 26, 2015 9:42 PM

In the steam era, railroads were far more scheduled, so there was a more reliable indicator of how far a crew could get before outlawing. Of course, trains didn't always run on schedule.

Probably the biggest factor was steam locomotive limits. Early locomotives needed minor repairs every hundred miles or so; crew districts reflected this even after technology improved greatly.  

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Posted by rfpjohn on Thursday, May 21, 2015 4:40 PM

When I woked on the Southern, back in the 70's, one of the old heads told me that deadhead time used to be considered part of your legal rest! Working as a brakeman on a Richmond to Danville freight for 16 hours, a man would find himself nearly rested if he deadheaded back home.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, May 21, 2015 3:15 PM

Way, Way back - the crew sleeping in the caboose was considered Rest as defined in the earliest days of the Hours of Service laws (which allowed 16 hours on duty and 8 hours rest).  Remember, when the Hours of Service was first implemented - there was no way to get relief crews to trains in many circumstance since the was no highway system to speak of and no vehicles capable of transporting a 5 man train crew over non-existant roads except for passenger trains which may not have operated on various branch lines.

In the early 1970's the allowed HOS period was reduced to 14 hours.  In the late 1970's the HOS period was further reduced to 12 hours - in both those changes, the 8 hour rest period was retained.  Approximately 2013, the rest period was changed from 8 hours (disturbable - ie. crew could be called with 2 hours notice to be on duty on their 8 hour rest tiem) to 10 hours undisturbed, crew cannot be called until 10 hours after their tie up time, for any reason, except for their failure to return operating authority back to the carriers dispatchers.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by FUSE- on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 4:40 PM

worked IC ST LOUIS DIV  centralia,il  dicstrice last couple years pf 

WWII   HOG LAW (hours allowed to work was 16) had one occiasion

to having to stop  they would taxi new crew  and the cab would take 

entire crew to division point where we started  and new crew would take

train came close some times but only one i recall  

 

FUSE-

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Crews "Outlawing"
Posted by pajrr on Wednesday, May 20, 2015 11:19 AM

These days one can usually find a train stopped somewhere, tied down with engines idling, waiting for a replacement crew to come along because the crew reached their hours of service limit. Sometime a train can sit most of a day or longer. Was this common during steam days? My thinking is that it was not, since steam locomotives and crews were changed at division points, about 100 - 150 miles apart. These days railroads seem to try to get every inch that they can out of crews. Does anyone know what it was like back in steam days? Leaving a steam engine simmering somewhere unattended for long periods of time with no one around, in my mind at least, is asking for trouble. Are there less crews these days, being asked to do more work, just like with any other companies these days? Any info would be appreciated.

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