B&O into Penn Station

[daveklepper]

Friend's message settles the matter:

There was a level grade crossing between the CNJ and the PRR mains at Elizabeth, and an interchange track in the correct quadrant there.   The elevation of the PRR tracks and depression of those of the CNJ took place after the B&O left Penn Station.

The Bound Brook Lehigh Valley connection could also have been used at the time but was not.

[timz]

B&O left NY Penn in ... 1926, wasn't it? PRR thru Elizabeth was elevated long before that.

Harwood's book says B&O trains took LV from Manville to whatever PRR called Hunter then.

[daveklepper]

When was PRR elevated through Elizabeth?  Was  not this done in the early 1930's as preparation for the electrification, NY - Wilmington  (Sunnyside - Trenton)?

Herman Rinke rode the train(s).   I trust his memory.

[timz]

In that case he'll remember riding thru Elizabeth on elevated tracks.

I'll see if Triumph V gives the date-- I'm betting it was before 1910.

[wanswheel]

Scientific American, February 2, 1895

"The roadbed is now carried throughout the city on an elevated structure doing away with grade crossings along its entire line, the work being comparable to that recently done in Jersey City on the same road. The effect of raising the tracks was to bring the Pennsylvania above the level of the Central Railroad so that each road could be worked without interference from the other."

http://subwaynut.com/njt/elizabeth/elizabeth3.jpg

http://subwaynut.com/njt/elizabeth/

The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad in New Jersey by Edward F. Bommer

“To reach Penn Station, B&O passenger trains were routed over the Lehigh Valley from Manville, NJ on the Reading to Manhattan Transfer. Reading locomotives were used on B&O passenger trains between Philadelphia and Manhattan Transfer. From there, PRR electric locomotives brought the trains into Penn Station."

http://jcrhs.org/B&O.html

[daveklepper]

Looks like either the usually very dependable Herman Rinke slipped up in his memory or my email friend did not quote him accurately.  Unless, of course, there was a steeply graded interchange track that was retained, and particiular train Herman was on was rerouted because of a problem on the regular established route.

By the time I rode the B&O, B&O steam power was used clear through to the CofNJ Jersey City Terminal. The CofNJ Station at Elizabeth was an important stop  for most if not all JC-WDC B&O trains.   Obvoiusly they could not stop there when they ran to Penn Station.

[daveklepper]

Was there an interchange track for many years after the grade separation?

[rcdrye]

Took a look at the current view.  There's no evidence in the building arrangement that there was an interchange track, especially one in the NW quadrant  (The layout of the streets would show it if there had been.)   The NE quadrant is visible in Wanswheel's photo, and there's no evidence of any switches. Aerial views of the former PRR don't show any tower remains, either. There was a possible path through what's now Newark Airport, but it would have been pretty slow.

[daveklepper]

Shure, but remember that we are talking about an interchange track that would have been removed 90 years ago or so!   Lots of streets and housing could have been constructed since.   I do recall my using the PRR Elizabeth Station at age 13, 1945, to go to friend's Bar Mirzvah, and any interchange track had been long gone by then.

[wanswheel]

Item from PRR Chronology by Christopher T. Baer:

March 20, 1890: “…freight interchange with CNJ moved from Elizabeth to Oak Island Junction.”

http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1890%20August%202011.pdf

[daveklepper]

That would seem to answer the question.   But does it?   Could not the interchange have been moved for the construction period and then reinstated, only to be moved a second time much later?

[wanswheel]

Would it help to know CNJ junction points in 1910?

1911 map PRR in New Jersey

http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/HISTORICALMAPS/RAILROADS/Pennsylvania_Railroad_1911.jpg

 

[daveklepper]

The map doen't say one way or the other.   The symbols are the same as for the DL&W crossing the PRR at Phillipsburg and the Lehigh Valley at Lehigh Junction, PA., both definitely with interchange tracks.

[daveklepper]

And there are numerous interchange tracks in existance today that simply are not used except in special ocasions.   One example is between the Providence and Worcester and Pan Am (Guilford) at Barbers, MA .   One would think that traffic between Portland - Bangor, ME and southern CT would be interchanged at Barber (or Worcester, with Pan Am using trackage rights to get there), but it is interchanged at Gardner, even though the routing is longer.

[wanswheel]

Very vintage video seems to show CNJ and PRR at Elizabeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQzXCoQRbas

[daveklepper]

viewed from the SE quadrent.   interchange woud have been in the NW.

Good film!   Thanks!    (Rode the Ulster annd Delaware, Kingston - Fleishmans