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Daylight Savings Time Question

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Posted by aricat on Thursday, May 8, 2014 5:16 PM

Public timetables were for the public; not employees, who always continued to use Standard Time. Daylight time could be chaotic for the railroads. The Burlington, Milwaukee and C&NW always had to contend with Daylight Savings time issues with their trains to and from Chicago to the Twin Cities. Illinois always changed to Daylight Savings Time; Wisconsin and Minnesota remained on Standard time until 1957. The next year Minnesota changed its start and stop dates for Daylight Savings Time  to between Memorial Day and Labor Day and that continued until 1966 when the nation changed to Daylight Savings Time in unison. Burlington ticket sellers always told passengers during the summer in Minneapolis that the Morning Zephyr left Minneapolis at 9:00 local time which was 8:00 CST.

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Posted by timz on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 8:51 PM

wjstix
A timetable printed in August might not take effect until October.

In which case the timetable will be dated October.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 4:37 PM

Public timetables always have effective date shown  Sometimes the start and end dates will be noted.   Notes in the schedules will indicate any variations during the effective dates.    Distribution timing is part of the job as should be advance notifications.

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 3:51 PM

Issued or printed date doesn't necessarily mean that much, it's the "effective date" of the timetable. A timetable printed in August might not take effect until October. That would allow time for the TT to be distributed throughout the system.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 29, 2014 12:09 PM

I do recall there were railroads that stuck to standard time in the public timetables and said so and left it up to the passenger to find out what local time was observed, and provided the warning on this issue.

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Posted by timz on Monday, April 28, 2014 1:29 PM

The timetable issued in August would show the August schedule. The passengers in Jersey City and Chicago needed to remember the clocks in town were an hour later than RR time until sometime in September.

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, April 28, 2014 9:52 AM

pajrr

Hi Everyone, I just acquired an ERIE RR timetable from May 27, 1928. While the schedule shows JC - Buffalo, only JC to Port Jervis, NY is shown as Daylight Savings Time. The rest of the TT is EST. In an ERIE System timetable from August 1937 from JC to Chicago, Daylight Savings Time isn't shown at all. Can anyone explain this? Any information anyone can provide is appreciated.

 
Daylight Saving Time runs from the Spring to the Fall, so it makes sense the timetable issued in August(covering the upcoming winter 'standard time' months) wouldn't use it.
 
Not sure where "JC" is (Jersey City??) but perhaps it was in a county that chose not to use DST. Even today, there are states where some counties change and some don't.
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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, April 26, 2014 6:54 AM

I agree with Jeff that the point between two time zones may well have been a crew change point--unless each person operating in two time zones on one run had a watch with two hour hands.

When traveling across country, I do not reset my watch, but simply remember which time zone I am in--but my life does not depend upon knowing the exact time.

Reading about Daylight time reminds me of one of Pullman Conductor William Moedinger's anecdotes which concerned his encounter with a passenger who had trouble comprehending when she would reach her destination. In despair, he at last told her that in so many minutes she would reach it--and her response was, "Is that daylight time or standard time?"

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, April 25, 2014 10:12 PM

I have some Rock Island, Milwaukee Road, and Burlington Northern ETTs where divisions have two different time zones in effect.  The BN ETTs made it easier to tell which subdivision is in which time zone by having the schedule/station columns printed in black ink for one zone, the other zone was in red ink. 

One BN subdivision showed  two zones governing.  It had the majority in the central zone, but about 30 or 40 miles of the west end was in the mountain zone.  I imagine where the zones divided may have been the actual crew change point, that they didn't run through over the entire subdivision.  The subdivision territory may not have reflected the actual crew district.

Recall also the article on RI dispatchers in a 1980 Trains Magazine.  One dispatcher handled from Des Moines to Colorado.  Central time was in effect to Goodland KS, Mountain time west of there.  (In earlier years, Phillipsburg KS was the dividing line for railroad purposes.  The actual time zone divide was between the two terminals.)  The dispatcher had two standard clocks, one set to Central time and the other set to Mountain time. 

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, April 25, 2014 7:55 PM

this probably is not germane to the question of Daylight Saving [no "s" at the end], but my knowledge of ETT's and operation in two time zones in one division is that the ETT showed only one time zone.

Two examples: the ACL's line from Waycross to Montgomery ran in both ET and CT--and only ET is shown in the ETT; the Southern's line from Atlanta to Birmingham also operated in bot ET and CT--and only CT is shown in the Birmingham Division ETT.

In the spring of 1966, I rode from Waycross to Montgomery; I read a train order that indicated that we would arrive in Montgomery after the Humming Bird had left, which worried me until the conductor told me the entire division operated on eastern time. I was going from Atlanta to Birmingham via the ACL & L&N, going into Jacksonville and then back to Waycross.)

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 24, 2014 6:53 AM

and the railroads stuck with standard time for operations.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:23 AM
timz

It seems it was in the 1930s that the Guide started including that list that tried to keep track of who used Daylight Time and who didn't. Don't see any such thing in the June 1926 and June 1929 Guides.

The June 1939 lists 200+? cities and towns in NY that used Daylight Time-- and it says all NY stations on the Erie, Port Jervis and east thereof, used EDT. No other RR is so mentioned.

Yes, until Congress(in its wisdom) stepped into the matter of forcing people to get up earlier even when they saw no reason to get up earlier simply because the sun was coming up earlier, local option could prevail. And, as was noted, individual towns and cities could decide whether or not to make the change.

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Posted by timz on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 5:56 PM

It seems it was in the 1930s that the Guide started including that list that tried to keep track of who used Daylight Time and who didn't. Don't see any such thing in the June 1926 and June 1929 Guides.

The June 1939 lists 200+? cities and towns in NY that used Daylight Time-- and it says all NY stations on the Erie, Port Jervis and east thereof, used EDT. No other RR is so mentioned.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:35 PM

IN 1928, there was not much commuter traffic from Port Jervis to New York City, perhaps one or two commuter trains each way.   Same was true for New Haven, wtih Stamford being the real end of commuter service.  Likewise Poughkeepsie, with :Peekskill being the real end, and ditto Brewster vs. N. Whte Plains.  It is possible that New York State and the Federal Government let each county decide whether they wished to observe DST or not.

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Posted by pajrr on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:02 PM

Hi, Thanks for your answers. My question really was, however, why in 1928 was Port Jervis, NY the end of DST and from Port Jervis west was EST? Was NY State only partially in DST? Maybe it was because of commuters? Port Jervis east was very heavy commuter traffic. Maybe they wanted that part of the line DST like NY City and the rest of NY State didn't matter? I know that there are some "split states", but was NY State ever one of them? And Henry6 is right, we are talking public timetables, not employee.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:24 AM

Actually I believe western Indiana has adopted Eastern Time both Standard and Daylight all year round. Up to about 5 years ago they stayed with Eastern Standard time all year long so that part of the year they were the same as Chicago and part of the year they were an hour off.  

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:06 AM

South Shore has long had this problem as most of the line is on Central Time while South Bend is on Eastern Time.  Add to the fact that Illinois and the Indiana counties on Central Time observe Daylight Savings Time while the parts of Indiana on Eastern Time do not.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:12 AM

My August 1957 OG has wild variation on whether times are in ST, DT, both or not specified.  It's still confusing in places that don't change.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:17 AM

The two timetables in question date from May 1928 and August 1937 rather than the war years.  I was born in June 1943 and am told it was during Daylight Savings time.  Railroad's employee timetables operated as Standard  Time well into the 50's and maybe 60's.  And even public timetables were printed as reflecting Standard Time which was confusing as all get out.   The 7AM commuter train October 1st through  April 30th left at 6AM May 1st through September  30th.  

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:09 AM

A better answer:  I do not know about the Erie, since I traveled long distance on it only well after WWII.  But I assure you the during WWII there were many railroads where standard time was the only time observed in employees' timetables and operations, and daylight savings time was noted in public timetables only and not in employees timetables nor shown on their watches.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:57 AM

efftenxrfe

Our rules  Czars & Gurus, Cy Napper and Ken Miller, maybe others during my time, kept clarity and literal  interpretation of rules and special instructions most important, required system wide.

Doubtful, they would have permitted a change of time zones where the operation was governed by time-granted track occupancy.

That authority to run on the main track, during your "TIME" granted by the Dispr, sure don't want confusion about DST or Standard Time....where time zones changed?


Don't confuse the employee timetable/schedules/book of rules with public timetables as posted.   There were specific rules and regulations and instructions dealing with time and time zones as well as with Standard and Savings times.  The question here is about public timetables and dates rather than operations.  My answer above is a poor answer and I had hope somebody more familiar with the era could answer.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by efftenxrfe on Monday, April 21, 2014 8:20 PM

Our rules  Czars & Gurus, Cy Napper and Ken Miller, maybe others during my time, kept clarity and literal  interpretation of rules and special instructions most important, required system wide.

Doubtful, they would have permitted a change of time zones where the operation was governed by time-granted track occupancy.

That authority to run on the main track, during your "TIME" granted by the Dispr, sure don't want confusion about DST or Standard Time....where time zones changed?


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Posted by henry6 on Monday, April 21, 2014 4:45 PM

I believe DST was in effect for a period of time from WWI t the late 20s and abandoned then in effect again in the early 40's.  Plus it may have started in May and ended before end of August.  The application of DST has varied a lot over the years for sure.

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Daylight Savings Time Question
Posted by pajrr on Monday, April 21, 2014 4:14 PM

Hi Everyone, I just acquired an ERIE RR timetable from May 27, 1928. While the schedule shows JC - Buffalo, only JC to Port Jervis, NY is shown as Daylight Savings Time. The rest of the TT is EST. In an ERIE System timetable from August 1937 from JC to Chicago, Daylight Savings Time isn't shown at all. Can anyone explain this? Any information anyone can provide is appreciated.

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