Undoing of Standard Time.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, March 4, 2019 2:00 PM

Other than station stops, Amtrak trains run either on signal indication or some version of Track Warrants (TWC or DTC, depending on the owning railroad) so there is no timetable in the "Timetable and Train Order" sense.  A train arriving early at a passenger stop is expected to "wait for time" as Johnny indicated, unless its a "D" stop where a timetable note says the train may depart before the scheduled time.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, March 4, 2019 1:36 PM

Amtrak trains do have schedules that the public can access. Certainly, if the Amtrak schedule states that a train is to leave a certain point at a certain time, the traveling public will expect the train to not leave before the published time--so an Amtrak train would be held uttil the clock reaches that time.

In general, long distance trains have no published times of departure from Alexandria to New York City--so they may leave such stations any time after the announced arrival time.

After the change from standard to daylight time, all trains with a schedule will run an hour late unless they are able to make time up. It is only at the fall change that scheduled trains would be held.

Johnny

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Posted by timz on Monday, March 4, 2019 12:34 PM

Like everyone else, RRs moved their clocks forward an hour in February 1942 and stayed there until September? 1945.

RRs nationwide moved their clocks forward an hour on 30 April 1967 -- the first year of standardized nationwide DST. When they moved them back at the end of October, a scheduled train that was running on time would indeed have to stop and wait for an hour, unless the dispatcher annulled the schedule. But nowadays "scheduled trains" don't actually exist.

WILLIAM O CRAIG
some metropolitan areas went on Double Daylight Saving Time.

In the US? Where?

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Posted by WILLIAM O CRAIG on Saturday, March 2, 2019 10:47 PM

I just ran across this item about time zones and time changes.  The time is appropriate, as we are about to change our clocks again in 2019.  I covered the Interstate Commerce Commission for Traffic World magazine from 1958 to 1969 and a hearing examiner once told me that the worst, most bitter  hearings he ever presided over were those involving a proposed time zone boundary change.   In World War II, everybody went on "war time" (permanent DST), and some metropolitan areas went on Double Daylight Saving Time.  When I was in Chicago in the summer of 1946 some public clocks had two hour hands, one for DST and the other for standard time that the railroads still ran on.   I have heard that trains stop for an hour when universal DST goes into effect so that their schedules will match the new times.  Does anyone know if this is true?

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 5:45 PM

Deggesty

Sad to say, I do not remember the source, but a year or two ago I saw a study which showed that more energy is used during the time that we have to get up an hour earlier than we should than during the time that our clocks are closer to sun time. In other words, Daylight Saving Time wastes energy. But, it seems that the people in Bedlam-on-the-Potomac are immune to reasoning.

Pay your money and get the 'study' says what you want it to!

The older I get the cinical I get to all these 'studies'!

One study says coffee is bad, the next says coffee is good, the third says coffee does nothing, the fourth study says tea does it better - ad nauseaum

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 4:58 PM

Overmod

K4sPRR

Semper Vaporo
Indiana used to leave it up to the individual county as to whether to adopt DST.

Due to that,  a friend of mine who grew up in Indiana told me he would wear two watches.

Could this be an added reason to use the "Fort Wayne" hour hand sometimes found on railroad watches?  This has two hour hands fixed one hour apart (one usually red or gold, the other normal blued (or for Illinois, plum).  I had thought this was just for operation across a time zone... but yikes!  if railroad time varied with county time, there might be an additional use.

My father who was a officer on railroad divisions that spanned two time zones had his Railroad Approved Bouleva Accutron with two hour hands.

The nominal orientation of Indiana and time zones was that the counties around Chicago, observed Chicago time - the balance of the state observed Eastern time.  It would get 'wild' when daylight saving time went into effect - the counties around Chicago observed what Chicago observed, the counties around Cincinnati observed what Cincinnati observed, and as I recollect, the state as a whole did not move to 'Daylight Saving Time'.

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Posted by timz on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 12:25 PM

Overmod
if railroad time varied with county time...

Hard to believe it ever did, even before 1883. But for some unknown reason a few trains did change time zones during their run-- that is, not at a crew-change point. Big Four west from Cincinnati, and I think the NP or GN in Idaho or someplace.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 2, 2014 6:19 AM

K4sPRR

Semper Vaporo
Indiana used to leave it up to the individual county as to whether to adopt DST.

Due to that,  a friend of mine who grew up in Indiana told me he would wear two watches.

Could this be an added reason to use the "Fort Wayne" hour hand sometimes found on railroad watches?  This has two hour hands fixed one hour apart (one usually red or gold, the other normal blued (or for Illinois, plum).  I had thought this was just for operation across a time zone... but yikes!  if railroad time varied with county time, there might be an additional use.

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Posted by dakotafred on Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:24 PM

Re. Paul above:

As I recall it, the argument was that natural gas was too precious to burn for the generation of electricity. (This was before today's plentiful supply.) The proper use was for home heating. Perhaps the effect was a net shift of natural gas to the north. I do know that, up north too, we had plants burning gas or even oil. These too were encouraged to switch to coal, where practical.

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Thursday, March 20, 2014 11:18 AM

Deggesty

Sad to say, I do not remember the source, but a year or two ago I saw a study which showed that more energy is used during the time that we have to get up an hour earlier than we should than during the time that our clocks are closer to sun time. In other words, Daylight Saving Time wastes energy. But, it seems that the people in Bedlam-on-the-Potomac are immune to reasoning.

     I remember wondering what the logic was behind changing to daylight saving time as a solution to the energy shortage.   Someone suggested that its purpose was just to disrupt our routine to remind us to conserve energy.

   Something else puzzled me:  Before the crisis, power plants in the south ran mainly on natural gas which was abundant here, and up north they ran on coal.   Part of the solution to the energy crisis was to have the south convert to coal which had to be shipped down from the north so that the natural gas could be sent north.   I never have figured that one out.

   I have always been anti-DST.

_____________

   "A stranger is just a friend you ain't met yet."  ___ Dave Gardner

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:03 AM

Be glad you're not Chinese.  The whole country observes Beijing time.  Sunrise at 9:00 AM in the far west, anyone?

As for this old Air Force type, let's hear it for Zulu!

Chuck

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Posted by dakotafred on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 11:48 AM

I hear ya, Stix. I no doubt remember too many things that ain't so!

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 9:16 AM

Sad to say, I do not remember the source, but a year or two ago I saw a study which showed that more energy is used during the time that we have to get up an hour earlier than we should than during the time that our clocks are closer to sun time. In other words, Daylight Saving Time wastes energy. But, it seems that the people in Bedlam-on-the-Potomac are immune to reasoning.

"Bedlam"--the British pronunciation of "Bethlehem;" many years ago there was a hospital named "Bethlehem" where people who were not quite right in the head were confined.

I do not remember if it was William Sydney Porter (O Henry) who originated the expression "Bedlam-on-the-Potomac;" I do remember his using the expression "Bagdad-on-the Hudson" for New York City.

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, March 18, 2014 8:51 AM

dakotafred

Nixon has a lot of things to answer for, but not this one. Altho the oil embargo hit in '73 -- causing the price of gas where I lived to jump from 32 cents to the stratospheric heights of 44 cents -- Nixon was gone when a Democratic Congress and Gerald Ford got around to enacting year-round DST in time for the winter of '74-5.

No it was Nixon. I remember it happened when I was in Jr.High...and I didn't start high school until Sept. 1974. It was the winter before that.

I looked it up, Nixon signed the law Dec. 15, 1973, taking effect January 6, 1974.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=4073

 

Stix
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Posted by wanswheel on Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:07 PM
George Vernon Hudson of New Zealand was the first ‘inventor’ of Daylight Savings Time, which he called Seasonal Time. Ben Franklin wrote about morning sunlight wasted on a population still asleep, but Hudson was the first to propose resetting the clock twice a year. http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/volume/rsnz_31/rsnz_31_00_008570.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trbL2jKCRNc
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Posted by dakotafred on Saturday, March 15, 2014 6:27 PM

wjstix

Wasn't there a deal with the oil embargo in 1973 where Nixon ordered that the clocks not change that winter (1973-74)?? I was in ninth grade then (last year of Jr. High) and I remember in the winter being in school for like two hours each day before the sun came up ... Somehow this was supposed to save gasoline or something.

Nixon has a lot of things to answer for, but not this one. Altho the oil embargo hit in '73 -- causing the price of gas where I lived to jump from 32 cents to the stratospheric heights of 44 cents -- Nixon was gone when a Democratic Congress and Gerald Ford got around to enacting year-round DST in time for the winter of '74-5.

They also gave us the "double nickel" speed limit, even on interstate highways, that persisted until 1995, with dubious benefit.

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Posted by dakotafred on Saturday, March 15, 2014 6:15 PM

Semper Vaporo

I should add that Granddad was always talking about being on "God's time" and forget this messing with the clocks.

You still hear talk of "God's time" from people who don't understand that Standard Time is just as artificial a construct as Daylight Savings. Put them back on the real "God's time" -- sun time -- and they'd scream to high, uh, Heaven.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 15, 2014 9:59 AM

Pigs and cows? Dogs, also. The last dog we had knew which days of the week he and I would take a walk when I came home from work. In the summer, I would have to tell him, when I came home, that we would have to wait because it was too hot to go then.(And in the winter, I was able to leave work a little early so we could get an hour's walk in while there was still light enough to see where we were going.)

Johnny

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Posted by K4sPRR on Saturday, March 15, 2014 7:13 AM

Semper Vaporo
Indiana used to leave it up to the individual county as to whether to adopt DST.

Due to that,  a friend of mine who grew up in Indiana told me he would wear two watches.

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Posted by wjstix on Saturday, March 15, 2014 12:56 AM

No one who grew up on a farm (like my wife) has much good to say about Daylight Savings Time. Apparently pigs and cows don't really grasp the concept very well.

 

Stix
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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Friday, March 14, 2014 11:53 AM

Indiana used to leave it up to the individual county as to whether to adopt DST.  If you were traveling any distance in ANY direction and wanted to keep your watch correct, you would have to adjust the time ahead or back at many county lines.

 

EDIT:  I should add that Granddad was always talking about being on "God's time" and forget this messing with the clocks.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by Deggesty on Friday, March 14, 2014 10:25 AM

I don't remember just what year it was, but I do remember the asinine ruling--and I remember that some school children lost their lives because of having to be out in the pitchdark so they could get to school on time. I do not remember much detail of going to school during winter when we had "wartime" during the War (WW II, for those who are too young to comprehend the term), but it seems that we started to school later during the winter.

Another thought about time zones. The boundaries, especially the one between Eastern and Central time, have been changed many times; usually they were moved to the west from the appointed lines that were seven and a half degrees west of the meridians used to determine the time. Long ago, all of Ohio, Michigan, Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida were in the central zone. When my mother and father moved from Virginia to Florida to live right after they were married in 1919, they were told to change their watches at Columbia, S.C. In 1938, Atlanta, Asheville, and Bristol, Tenn./Va. were points of change.

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, March 14, 2014 9:16 AM

Wasn't there a deal with the oil embargo in 1973 where Nixon ordered that the clocks not change that winter (1973-74)?? I was in ninth grade then (last year of Jr. High) and I remember in the winter being in school for like two hours each day before the sun came up.

Sleep

Somehow this was supposed to save gasoline or something. Oh, and for a while back then outdoor Christmas lights were discouraged to save electricity, so for quite a few years you didn't see huge home displays like you had in the sixties (or see again in recent years).

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:38 AM

I should have prefaced "Most of the South...." with "Until Congress enacted its decree,"

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:34 AM

 

Ah, yes, there could well be great confusion and many missed trains  (as though no one misses a train now) before the inauguration of standard time zones. Seldom were the time standards mentioned in the railroads' representations in the guides of the era. Looking in the Travelers Official Railway Guide of the United States and Canada for June, 1869, I find a rare note in the representation of the Wilmington and Manchester Railway (Wilmington, N.C., to Kingsville, S.C., and Kingsville to Camden)--"Camden Branch Trains...run by Camden time, which is 15 minutes slower than Wilmington and Manchester Railway time."

I do not know how many of you remember the hodge-podge of starting and ending times for the so-called "Daylight Saving Time" before Congress, in its infinite wisdom, decreed that everybody is to observe the same dates, unless a state legislature exempted its state; Congress did make an exception for the area of Indiana close to Chicago. The details of this hodge-podge were published in the Guide.

Most of the South did not make the change, but the people in Virginia living near (and especially those working there) in Bedlam-on-the-Potomac had to make the change.

I like Phoebe Vet's comment about the people who were incapable of adjusting their time.

Incidentally, during the Second World War, the people in England had to endure Double War Time. At least, we in the South were forced to observe only single War Time.

Are many of you familiar with Robert Louis Stevenson's poem which sets forth the lament of the boy in Scotland who,  "In winter, I get up and dress by candlelight"--and "In summer, quite the other way, I have to go to bed by day"?

Johnny

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Thursday, March 13, 2014 10:15 AM

Daylight Saving Time statistics for 2014

Daylight Saving Time observance?CountExample
Countries and territories which do not observe DST at all 159 China
Countries and territories where at least one location observe DST 79 United States
–Countries and territories where all locations observe DST some part of the year 68 Germany
–Countries and territories where many, but not all locations observe DST part of the year 10 United States
–Countries and territories where at least one location observe DST all year 2 Macquarie Island
–Countries and territories where all locations observe DST all year 1 Falkland Islands

Dave

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:28 AM

wjstix

According the story they taught us in school, Daylight Savings Time was first proposed by Ben Franklin, who thought it odd that during certain times of year Philadelphia shops would sit closed in the mornings until several hours after the sunrise, but would close in late afternoon or evening in the dark. By adjusting the clocks by an hour, the shops could both open and close during daylight hours - a good thing in the years before electric lighting.

What a shame that people were incapable of adjusting their hours of operation unless someone changed the time indicated on the village clock.  After the clock is adjusted the merchants are now opening an hour earlier just as they would be if they just said "In the summer we open an hour earlier".

Just as the railroads needed a standard time so opposing trains could be co-ordinated, so in our now very international society, we should run the entire world on standard time.  GPS & flight planning, among others, already do.

Dave

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:10 AM

BTW Railroad Standard Time created time zones, so every station within one time zone set their clocks to the same time, rather then setting them by the sun (causing different times as you travelled east or west). It had nothing to do with Daylight Savings Time.

According the story they taught us in school, Daylight Savings Time was first proposed by Ben Franklin, who thought it odd that during certain times of year Philadelphia shops would sit closed in the mornings until several hours after the sunrise, but would close in late afternoon or evening in the dark. By adjusting the clocks by an hour, the shops could both open and close during daylight hours - a good thing in the years before electric lighting.

Stix
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Posted by timz on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 2:55 PM

Deggesty
As I understand the matter, when the noon sighting had been taken, the time on board the ship would be set to noon.

Depends on what you mean by "the time". The ship has clocks for everyone to look at; they're reset to stay halfway near local time. The chronometer that gives time for celestial navigation stays on Greenwich time.

No idea when they reset clocks, but they wouldn't use a noon sight to reset them. No way to use a sextant near noon to determine time accurately.

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