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MILW Touralux sleeping cars

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MILW Touralux sleeping cars
Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:17 PM

ALL:

This post concerns the MILW's Touralux sleeping cars operated on the "Olympian Hiawatha".

"Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" states that these were Milwaukee Road built. Where they staffed by Pullman or Milwaukee porters?

The coach/sleepers were rebuilt to straight coaches while the 14 section were rebuilt at a later date. It appears that they were run on the "Olympian" only for a relatively few years.

Did these sleepers require a coach or first class ticket plus section space?

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Posted by wjstix on Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:24 PM

I'd venture it would be Pullman porters. By the time the Olympian was replaced with the Olympian Hiawatha, the operating wing of Pullman had been sold to a consortium of pretty much all passenger carrying railroads...so there was no danger of Pullman refusing to staff a non-Pullman built car, as Pullman was part owned by the Milwaukee. Some railroads (like New York Central or Rock Island) eventually used their own employees in sleeping cars rather than have Pullman employees, but I don't think Milwaukee Road ever did(??)

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 13, 2014 7:04 AM

1956 OG schedule says Pullman Touralux Sleeping Cars 14 sections

Milwaukee ended up with its own porters after Pullman closed in 1968.  By that time only the City trains had sleepers.

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Posted by lvt1000 on Monday, January 13, 2014 8:05 AM

RC: The Pioneer Ltd lasted a few years past the end of Pullman.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 13, 2014 11:40 AM

lvt1000

RC: The Pioneer Ltd lasted a few years past the end of Pullman.

So it did.  Last day of operation was Sept 7, 1970.  The last Pullman operations ended Dec 31, 1968.

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Posted by passengerfan on Monday, January 13, 2014 4:55 PM

The Touralux cars were operated as coach with just a space charge for the upper or lower. No upgrade to first class was required. Travel on the Olympian Hiawatha was probably one of the more scenic routes over the Mountain passes in Washington, Idaho and Montana. The only shortcoming I found with this train was the Dome offered no forward viewing and the windows distorted photos from the dome. Train always seemed old even though the equipment was new compared to Empire Builder City of Portland and North Coast Limited. I realize the cars except for the domes and sleepers were Milwaukee built but had the occasion to ride the domes when owned by CN and they brightened them up but did not improve photography from cars unless shooting through the glass on the lower level.

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Posted by nyc#25 on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:08 PM

 Well into the 1950s, the Milwaukee Road had BOTH Pullman and Milwaukee operated

sleepers.  The Milwaukee operated cars were primarily on branch lines and lesser trains.

The Olympian Hiawatha and Pioneer had Pullmans.  By 1960 all cars were operated by

Pullman until the end of Pullman operation of the cars.  It is interesting in that, at one time,

they operated trains  with BOTH Pullman and company operated cars on the same train

necessitating the train to have a Pullman conductor AND a Milwaukee Road sleeping

car conductor!

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:36 AM

Except that at least some railroads that operated their own sleepers did not have separate sleeping-car conductors, but simply added those duties to the duties of the regular conductor.   Penn Central for example.  I cannot say what Milwaukee did, but I suspect they similarly economized.   Also, of course, Amtrak.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 9:52 AM

And, when Pullman ceased operating the sleepers at the end of 1968, the railroad's conductors were in charge of them--more paperwork to turn over to the next conductor.

I wonder: if there were more than one sleeper on a train, was one porter responsible for all of the porters and he, in turn, was directly responsible to the railroad conductors?

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 12:23 PM

Pullman went to the porter-in-charge system in the late 1940s or 1950s for Pullman "lines" that had only a single car assigned.  Otherwise a Pullman conductor was usually assigned.  Railroad operated cars sometimes had a sleeping car conductor, sometimes not.  I'm pretty sure that when New York Central dropped its Pullman contract in 1958, the regular conductor pulled the sleeping car tickets, too.  Amtrak sort of reverted to the Pullman model with the on board passenger service agents in the mid 1970s, except that the train conductor handled tickets.

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Posted by nyc#25 on Thursday, January 16, 2014 7:05 AM

New York Central did not put on its own sleeping car conductors.  The train conductor

and the assistant conductor handled the diagrams.  I once rode the Milwaukee's "Afternoon

Hiawatha" in the sky top observation parlor and there was a parlor car conductor!

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, January 16, 2014 8:34 AM

nyc#25

 I once rode the Milwaukee's "Afternoon

Hiawatha" in the sky top observation parlor and there was a parlor car conductor!

PRR and NYNH&H had parlor car conductors on trains with multiple parlor cars.  After about 1950 PRR and Wabash were the only companies with Pullman parlor cars, and the Blue Bird didn't get its second (dome) parlor until 1952.

Other carriers besides Milwaukee had Pullman-operated cars that charged only a coach fare.  The Denver Zephyr Slumbercoaches (and the competing City of Denver service operated with repainted PRR-owned 21 roomette cars) were Pullman-operated, as were the NPs North Coast Limited Slumbercoaches.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 16, 2014 9:13 AM

And the slumbercoach on the Blackhawk with a Pullman Porter in Charge   --- rode it twice, one time a roomette car substituted!  The slumbercoach outlasted the regular sleeper and may have outlasted the competing Pioneer!   (Ovenright Chi -Twins)

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:04 AM

Both trains may have been discontinued at the same time. The April, 1970, issue of the Guide shows both trains; the October issue shows no overnight service between Chicago and the Twin Cities.

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:06 AM

The KCS also charged coach fare for first class travel.

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Posted by nyc#25 on Friday, January 17, 2014 8:42 AM

The New Haven also had Pullman operated parlors.  They terminated the parlor car contract with

Pullman in October 1956, the same time PRR did.

 The Soo Line was another line that operated bot Pullman and company owned cars at the same time.

So did the Canadian National on some lines out of Toronto.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, January 17, 2014 9:30 AM

CN's Pullman lines were mostly if not all cross-border GTW or Central Vermont routes.

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Posted by aricat on Saturday, January 18, 2014 6:53 AM

The Hiawatha Story by Jim Scribbins is the best source for information on the Olympian Hiawatha.

I feel that the Milwaukee Road deserves kudos for its passenger operations. The Olympian Hiawatha competed against the GN's Empire Builder and Western Star; the NP's North Coast Limited AND Northwest Airlines and US10. Northwest did operate an all tourist class DC-6B from Milwaukee and  Minneapolis to Seattle during the time the Touralux sleeping cars worked on the Olympian Hiawatha. The Olympian Hiawatha route, while beautiful through the mountains traveled through a very lightly populated area and served both Aberdeen South Dakota and Spokane Washington in the middle of the night.

Having the Touralux sleepers was an attempt to attract passengers to the train and compete with GN and NP. The GN's Empire Builder did operate tourist class sleepers in the 1930's but did not after World War II instead developing the Sleepy Hollow coach seat for long distance travel which proved popular. The Touralux was a risky move by Milwaukee Road; I'm not sure there was a sufficient market for it. The Olympian Hiawatha was an early casualty of the train off petitions. The Olympian Hiawatha was a good train which faced very stiff competition. It was truncated to Deer Lodge Montana in 1961 and lost its name; and to Aberdeen South Dakota the following year. Amazingly, that Aberdeen to Minneapolis train did run until 1968. I think that both the Morning Hiawatha and Pioneer Limited ran until the advent of Amtrak.

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Posted by aricat on Saturday, January 18, 2014 7:45 AM

The Pioneer Limited did disappear from the Milwaukee Road schedule in September of 1970, I stand corrected.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Saturday, January 18, 2014 2:03 PM

ALL:

It is my opinion that the BN should have had single RDC's (x-NP cars) on the "Blackhawk". I hauled a crew for a Lacrosse bound train and the conductor told me he was the conductor on the last "Blackhawk".

I also believe that the GN should have leased idle NP RDC's for the Superior to St. Paul run. Then they needed only a two man crew.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:47 AM

If I remember correctly, the NP RDCs ha d regular walkover seats.   They would not have made for many happy riders on a Chicago - Twin Cities overnight.  I would not have made two (possibliy three, with since I think one of the two was a round-trip) Blackhawk trips if some sort of sleeper had not been available.  Instead, I would have ridden a day train or flown.  I think the Slumbercoach lasted as long as the train did!  It was the head-end businees that kept it going, I believe.  That would also argue against an RDC.

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Posted by aricat on Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:37 AM

The Blackhawk of the late 1960's was quite a train. I believe that it did carry a slumbercoach up to the end. I rode it a couple of times in the late 1960's. The train, believe it or not, also had one vista dome on the trips I made in 1968 and 1969. The vista dome is quite a place to watch scenery at night. Burlington always had the lights dim at night which made for great viewing. You could really see well surprisingly. Patronage was down on both the Blackhawk and Pioneer Limited. The Burlington often assigned heavyweight coaches to the Blackhawk which justified me spending to small extra fare for the slumbercoach.

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Posted by ACY Tom on Sunday, January 19, 2014 4:34 PM
May I offer a bit of clarification regarding Amtrak's use of Onboard Service Chiefs to fill the position formerly filled by Pullman Conductors? When I worked out of WAS on the OBS extra board in 1987, the major long distance trains had Chiefs. They were in charge of the delivery of onboard service, so they were the direct managers of all OBS crew members on a given train. I left WAS service later in 1987 and went to Auto Train Service, where we have always had Onboard Service Chiefs, and continue to have them. The Auto Train Chief supervises well over 20 employees, and is definitely needed. Several years ago, Chiefs were removed from regular assignments on most or all other trains, and designated Supervisors filled the void with a "step-on/step-off" arrangement. A Supervisor might appear on the train at any time, any place. I was never involved in this, so I have no first-hand experience with it. I have always thought this system could result in an unfortunate sort of "Gotcha" management style, when what was needed was a consistent plan implemented daily with consistent management. Since there was no OBS manager there on a regular basis, the handling of problems was supposed to devolve to OBS crew members, the highest ranking person being the Lead Service Attendant in the dining car. Operational issues were, of course, handled by the conductor; but service issues would be referred to the LSA. In my opinion, a good LSA generally had enough to do without having these extra problems to contend with. However, I was not involved in these "step-on/step-off" operations, so I can't say for sure how effective it is/was.
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Posted by dakotafred on Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:38 AM

aricat

The Olympian Hiawatha was a good train which faced very stiff competition. It was truncated to Deer Lodge Montana in 1961 and lost its name; and to Aberdeen South Dakota the following year. Amazingly, that Aberdeen to Minneapolis train did run until 1968.

 
You drove me back to my 1962 Official Guide, where I was surprised to discover that now-nameless (as you say) Minneapolis-Deer Lodge Nos. 15-16 retained a sleeper, full diner and café-lounge. Pretty damn fine for those passengers who remained, if not for the stockholders! Does anybody (Aricat?) know for how long the trains retained the above-named amenities after they were cut back to Aberdeen?
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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:14 PM

Some answers: 4/26/64, 15 & 16 were cut back to Aberdeen. I have no Guide between the January and May issues, the January issue shows the Touralux sleeper and the café lounge. I would say that the good service was continued as long as the train ran to Deer Lodge.

Johnny

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