Did the CP purchase the three E-units to interline them with another railroad?
I am curious why the CN did not purchase E-units for their "flat-land" routes.
Did the NdeM consider E-units?
Ed Burns
Retired NP-BN-BNSF from Minneapolis
CP purchased three US-build (not GMD) E8s for interline operation with the Boston and Maine between Montreal and Boston. Initially the engines were used on the Allouette, the train in the Classic Trains Photo of the day, but they were also used on the overnight Red Wing via White River Jct. VT. The train as pictured is pointed west on the Boston and Maine's bridge between Woodsville NH and Wells River VT. A few feet ahead of the train is the north wye switch at Wells River where the train will turn north onto CP's own rails to head towards the Canadian border. It's quite possible that the engine crew on the E8 is a B&M crew operating in joint service as far as St. Johnsbury VT. CP power and crews operated over the B&M in both passenger and freight service well into the 1980s on the Connecticut River line.
The Allouette as pictured has a wooden CP baggage car, what appears to be a CP combine and a steel coach that may belong to either CP or B&M, and one of the CP-owned parlor-buffet-observations with open platform.
After the White mountain Division between Plymouth NH and Blackmount NH (near Woodsville) was abandoned, the through B&M/CP service to Montreal was equipped with RDCs. CP's RDCs ran through from Boston, on some schedules MU'd with a B&M car bound for Berlin NH. The E8s were reassigned to CP's International of Maine Division and used on the Atlantic all the way into the VIA era.
The B&M Boston - Montreal through service was a natural for one E-7 or E-8 unit, because the trains very rairly exceeded eight cars and grades were moderate. Elsewhere, CP found FP-7's more flexible with combinations of one, two, three, or four units as required. Similarly, B&M used E units Boston - Montreal and Boston - Portland, but elsewhere FT's modified for passenger service, F3's, anad F7's, and Alco RS-3's and GP-7's, sometimes with lashups of two different types. E's did get to Troy occasioinally, but very rarely in my experience. The B&M had only one E-8, delivered as the last in their last E-7 order.
T Y.
Rob and All:
Thanks for all the information. One last question. Did the CP purchase the E-units to avoid paying a customs charge for Canadian owned units coming to the US? The reason I asked is because I saw a GN distribution of power that had about six or eight locomotives and three cabooses marked with a star indicating that duty had been paid on those pieces of equipment.
763-34-9306
NP EddieDid the CP purchase the E-units to avoid paying a customs charge for Canadian owned units coming to the US?
CP had about 120 miles of U.S. trackage in Vermont, and its International of Maine division which crossed Maine on the way from Quebec to New Brunswick. It's possible that some of the power was purchased with customs duty in mind, but CP also purchased Schenectady-built RS2s and RS3s at the same time for Vermont operations that did not operate north of Newport VT. GMD may not have been interested in building the E Units in any case as they would most likely have required special tooling.
At the same time CP was buying its E8s, CN was leasing FM C-Liners to Central Vermont for operation from Montreal to New London CT. These had to be returned in 48 hours to avoid paying customs. CV also leased CN steam for Vermont operation, and CP pooled steam power with B&M, so CP and CN power, both steam and diesel, could be seen almost any time on opposite sides of White River Junction VT Union Station.
Before dieselization, B&M and CP pooled Pacific steam power on the Alouette, and may have also done it on the Red Wing. I rode behind a CP Pacific from North Station to Concord in the summer of 1945. There was sufficient time at both ends, Boston and Montreal, to service and turn the power for use on both the Red Wing and Alouette. Pooling power on the Red Wing may have ceased for a while, when the Red Wing was combined with a Boston section off the Montrealer-Washingtonian that was combined between Boston and Concord before it was dropped completely. (The daytime Ambassador kept its Boston section until the Alouette was rerouted via White River Junction, where connections in both directions were made beetween the Alouette and the Ambassador.) Someone can refresh my memory as to the dates when these changes occured.
My lasr Boston - Montreal rail trip was after the Budd car Alouette had ceased. Two Budd B&M Boston to Portland, taxi transfer, Grand Trunk - CN to Montreal. The CN buffet-parlor at the rear that I rode was named Alouette!
If memory serves me well, that lone E8 on the B&M went to Mopac. CN was host to a pair of Alco PA demonstrators and were even painted gold and green! I remember a pix in Trains Magazine. They went to the Katy. If CN and NdeM considered E units I imigine the answers are lost in history. Wonder if CP considered PAs before they puchased the E8s?
I should add details. The 1945 Alouette that I rode had a baggage-mail at the front, and I think ti was B&M. Four coaches, on CP semi-lightweight or the similar B&M "American Flyer", three non-air conditioned coaches of which our camp group occupied one-and-one-half, and the CP Buffet-Parlor-open-platform Obs at the rear. The Portland-Montreal train around 1964 had, if I remember correctly, two GT GP-7's or GP-9's, a whole string of lightweight CN coaches, abut six or severn, no head end equipment that I remember, and the Alouette at the rear. The French Canadians the used the train usually brought their own food and drink. I paid the upgrade to parlor, getting the last seat available, in order to be able to buy some food, and also to enjoy the rear vestibule while there was still light, which there was until we passed Island Pond. Only cold food and hot coffee and tea and cold soft drinks were available, but the sandwich wasn't bad by any neans. Spent overnight in Montreal in the Queen Elizabeth above the CN station and next morning went to Windsor Sta. to catch the CP Budd train to Three Rivers for check-out of my-designed sound system at the shrine at Cap du la Madeleine. I had planned on taking the CP back to Montreal, but the organ builder, Larry Phelps, who was then the Tonal Dorector for Casavant Freres Limmite in St. Hycinth, wanted to give me a tour of the factory, so I rode in his Merecedes, including the leg from St. Hycinth to Montreal. Then came CP-NYC to Detroit, visit with my sister and family, C&O to Prince for Bekeley, WVa, then to NY, day in the NY office, and Merchants Limited or overnight on Owl to Boston.
CP and B&M steam and later diesel power were pooled between Newport and White River Jct. VT on the Red Wing, since the through cars became part of the New Englander, a CN/CV/B&M train which ran with B&M power. CP power was serviced at the still-standing B&M roundhouse in Westboro (West Lebanon) NH across the Connecticut River from White River Jct.
Grand Trunk's passenger GPs were GP9s which replaced Alco-built RS3s in 1957 or 1958. Central Vermont went through the same change at the same time. CV and GT units frequently appeared on each others' lines, along with occasional Grand Trunk Western lease units.
CPR actually ordered E7s to match the B&M power on the joint service. But when they placed the order, the E7 had been superseded by the E8 so that is what they got. CPR E8s ran through to Boston, and similarly the B&M E7s ran through to Montreal. As others mentioned, a single unit was typical.
They were ordered from EMD as the GMD plant in London was still a year or two in the future. Because they were in international service no duty needed to be paid to Canada. Some years later they were "imported" into Canada by paying the duty on the now much lower value of a used locomotive.
I believe Montreal was always their home base. By the mid-1960s the Montreal-Boston service was history and they were used primarily on the Montreal-Ottawa and Montreal-Quebec trains, both of which had only a handful of cars. The 1801 was wrecked in a collision in 1968 or 69 while on a Quebec train. They would also occasionally make an appearance on a commuter train. The Ottawa trains were discontinued and the Quebec run converted to RDCs, at which time they started to become regular power for the Atlantic Limited to Saint John. But I have seen a picture of one on the Sudbury-Sault Ste Marie train, probably in the early 1960s, so they did stray a little from the Montreal base.
When VIA took over the passenger service in the late 1970s, they also acquired the surviving pair. They then saw some service on The Canadian, but no further west than Calgary, avoiding the mountains.
CNR was late buying passenger diesels, about 1955. (Road freight diesels started coming much earlier, about 1950.) I imagine the FP9 was cheaper than an E9, and was equally capable, maybe better, for CNR's passenger needs.
John
Grenadier It's a shame that neither of the two surviving E units were saved for a museum.
I don't know if it's true or even where I read it at this point, but I've seen it claimed that one was offered as a donation but declined. I want to say it was the Canadian Railway Museum near Montreal that had the opportunity.
There's also stories about the one that got scrapped back around 1970. Something like it only needed $500 in repairs after it was damaged but with CPR's anti passenger stance at that point, they retired it rather than repair a piece of dedicated passenger equipment that they hoped to soon have no need for.
That one needed a lot more than $500 in repairs after the head-on collision. The hulk lingered on for a couple of years beside the Angus Shops, and the damage was substantial.
Possibly one was offered as a donation - that I don't know. But you also have to bear in mind that any and all museums have limited resources and space. In the overall Canadian context the trio of E8s are an unrepresentative oddity, and the space and resources one would have consumed may mean a far more worthy piece gets lost.
Even if the space is available today, remember we must also keep room available to save examples of the current scene as they in turn become history. It may be almost incomprehensible at the moment to think of preserving the last AC4400, SD70ACe or GP38-2, but that time will come.
Not that I ever put any stock into it, but that certainly makes more sense than that railfan rumor. Plus, as that video shows, it's rather obvious that it isn't correct although she certainly appears salvageable. Doesn't even look like she started to crumple behind the cab like she was designed to in a bad head-on collision.
As for the potential donation of one, I agree completely and wasn't out to criticize. Chances are anyways that it never even happened. I mentioned it somewhere a few years ago with numerous knowledgeable folks, and nobody had ever heard that story.
Seems if there was any truth to it, it would've gotten a bit more mileage.
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