After Santa Fe gave up steam by January 1954 Santa Fe is fully dieselized. Why Santa Fe wanted to continue using steam locomotives than letting the diesel-electrics to take care of the freight trains. I thought Santa Fe did not care for steam locomotives . Santa Fe should give up steam completely and concentrating on diesel-electrics.
Based on my reading of various issues of TRAINS, steam on ATSF continued in a decreasing role primarily to cover traffic peaks and some helper duties. As time progressed, there were entire months in which steam was available but not used.
Some (many?) railroads kept some steam locomotives in reserve for several years after steam had generally been retired from the railroad. Sometimes in old rosters you'll see this listed as "stored serviceable". BTW this sometimes can cause confusion as to when railroads quit using steam, I believe the Missabe Road had some 2-8-8-4's that were still technically on the roster as late as 1971, even though they hadn't been used to haul ore since 1960.
When Santa Fe decided to go for complete dieselization it decided to prune it's steam roster in stages. All the older classes were discarded first. By 1950 the road decided to keep only their 5000 class 2-10-4s, their 3750 and 2900 class 4-8-4s, their 3800 class 2-10-2s and their 4000 class 2-8-2s for awhile longer. These were gradually eliminated as boilers expired and shopping was due until only the Texas and Northern types were still working. In 1953 they were called to help with the fruit and vegetable seasonal surge ( GFX trains ) and then they were gone. Santa Fe management almost had second thoughts on the matter as they noted how effectively the big steamers wheeled these trains across the flat prairie divisions.
The same reasons every other railroad dieselized. Less costly to maintain, ability to MU a number of units as opposed to double heading steam locomotives with each one requiring an engine crew, easier on the track, elimination of the need to make coal and water stops, higher availability (less time in shops) to name a few. All of these things were proven by the impressive performance of the diesels which the Santa Fe ran during WWII.
Mark
I find that hard to believe. It was extremely expensive to maintain facilities for both steam and diesel.
All and all the diesel is superior. Steam had to go. Sounds like typical railfan blather.
Steam was very expensive for the Sante Fe and Southern Pacific, too.. They had to import coal and water to service points which was expensive....more expensive than a lot of other roads because they had to haul the coal and water further to these stations. Plus, even if water didn't have to be imported, the condition or hardness of the water was costly to treat, too...and more costly to deal with if not treated.
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Water importation was a huge issue from LA east thru El Paso and Belen,but coal....a whole nuther story; Santa Fe and SP had online mines on New Mexico branches supplying the ex B&M Berk's and the AC9's, the conventional Lima "Mallets," actually simple articulateds until the end, which came years before dieselisation, .....when they were converted to Bunker C from cinder/ash production.
When SFe last cleaned an eng's ashpan---I don't recall---I'm an SP eng service alum...
Did Santa Fe officially dieselized in December 1953 because of Fred Gurley,who hated steam locomotives.after that why Fred Gurley didn't scrapped all the Santa Fe steam fleet
The source for this "blather" is Larry E. Brasher's Santa Fe Locomotive Development, Signature Press, 2006. The big engines can be seen in action in Joe G. Collias' The Search For Steam, Howell-North, 1960. Although first generation diesels were more efficient and economical they were hard pressed to equal the performance of the most modern steamers "over the road".
During the period that steam was ending on all railroads - there was not the locomotive leasing business that exists today. As a result, carriers carried a number of steam engines on their rosters long after they had pulled the last revenue load - they were kept as a hedge against rapid traffic expansion and the carrier not being able to secure diesel power to handle that peak traffic. After several years and the peak never requiring the activation of steam, the engines were written off to the scrappers and other dispositions.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If Pennsy had not scrapped so many I-1's, 2-10-0's, they would not have borrowed the AT&SF Texans to handle a peak on the Sandusky line.
And the elimination of the expensive hauling of water to service steam in the desert.
What led the Santa Fe's decision not to stay with steam in regular service (other than water shortages).I bet it was Fred Gurley who hated steam locos.
Also the ability to eliminate the number of helper districts.
Although ATSF steam ended officially in 1957, the 2900's and 5011 classes stayed till the end. EMD had the FT, which eased the need for helper districts, but in flatter country the 2-10-4's and 4-8-4's could outpower (not outpull) and outrun them.
I idon't believe it is at all correct to say that Gurley hated steam engines. He may have at one time hated some of the problems they presented in desert operations, but he was a rational person, rational people don't hate inanimate objjects, particularly since the Sante Fe had a long history of very successful operaton with steam before the diesel made its appearance. I am certain that Gurley respected Ripley and the excellent steam locomotives designed under his supervision. (And remember that Ripley also began the real dieselization program, with the last AT&SF steamers purchased simply because more FT's were not available during WWII.) AT&SF steam did not take a backseat to anyone, with their 4-8-4's performing as well as anyone else's (without some of the clearance restrictions that were imposed on the N&W J and NYC Niagra), and the 2-10-4 was arguably the best all-around non-articulated freight locomotive anywhere.
All the same. I can't help but wonder what if the Santa Fe kept using steam into maybe even the 70s. Or in this alternate history (http://mrbill6ishere.deviantart.com/art/American-Railroads-my-version-607635028) to this day. Albiet being used less as time passed.
Maybe... they could use condensin tenders like on the Class 25 4-8-4s of South Africa.
ANDREW BOYD Maybe... they could use condensin tenders like on the Class 25 4-8-4s of South Africa.
You do not need to wonder. The AT&SF converted from diesel to steam as rapidly as good business sense suggested and EMD's production capacity permitted. Again, their last steam locomotives were purchased during WWII after they had already decided to convert to diesel, only because the War Production Board would not allocate to them more diesels than they did, and diesel locomotive production was limited because of the builders producing tanks and armored vehicles. Then, after WWII, EMD and ALCO could not keep up with the demand at first, and AT&SF shied away from minority builders, unlike PRR. They had a rational plan of keeping modern steam for handling unpredictable peaks, rather than having expensive diesels sitting idle. And keeping steam in reserve was not all that costly, because during normal traffic, when the railroad was effectively all-diesel with the steam "stored serviceable," the steam facilities were maintained only with very reduced manpower. And when steam was used during peaks it was assigned to areas where water was available and did not require tank-car water trains for replentishment. Remember that the last use of the Texas-types was leasing to the PRR for coal-train service on the Sandusky Line.
No large railroad dieselized overnight. The AT&SF was typical of every large railroad. Some began soon, like the AT&SF and B&M and Southern, and D&RGW, some later, like the N&W which was still all-steam when the AT&SF became truly all-diesel. And the N&W likewise converted in steps, beginning with the Harrisburg Line and the use of Southern diesels on through trains between Monroe and Bristol, then all passenger trains and through freight trains, and finally mine runs, all over a much shorter time than the AT&SF because EMD was not limited at all in production at this later date.
The last use of Santa Fe Texas types was in helper service near Belen during 1957 also with a handful of Northerns. The PRR service was not the end of those magnificent Texas engines.
John
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