semaphore signal

[K4sPRR]

I have a semaphore signal that has a five digit number followed by an "X" cast into the metal.  Can anyone advise what this number indicates?

Thanks for any help or guidance!!

[henry6]

Do you know what railroad it came from?  What color(s) is it?  Is the end squared or forked or pointed?  Are there colored lenses on the head?  If so, what are the colors and the positions of the color?  

Knowing the railroad helps...but also to be determined is if it is upper or lower quadrant display, interlocking, automatic or home signal.  

My suspicions are that it is a home or interlocking signal with the "X" indicating a crossover or it may be a rapid transit signal indicating it is a repeater.  Let's see what others come up with.. 

[K4sPRR]

henry6

Do you know what railroad it came from?  What color(s) is it?  Is the end squared or forked or pointed?  Are there colored lenses on the head?  If so, what are the colors and the positions of the color?  

Knowing the railroad helps...but also to be determined is if it is upper or lower quadrant display, interlocking, automatic or home signal.  

My suspicions are that it is a home or interlocking signal with the "X" indicating a crossover or it may be a rapid transit signal indicating it is a repeater.  Let's see what others come up with.. 

The flag end is forked, its yellow with a black stripe, there are three color lenses on the head, red, yellow and blue (green??).  Its believed to come from Niles OH, either the B&O or PRR, as they had shared trackage in that area.  I never seen one with the number and an X with it.  Thanks for your response, hope this helps in anything additional you can pass on.

[rcdrye]

The yellow forked end with a black stripe usually is a lower semaphore on a multi-armed mast, often a "repeater" showing the indication of the next semaphore's main arm.  These are often used as part of advance signals for interlockings.  The "X" probably means the that the number refers to the signal being repeated.

Train order signals were often a different color (red) to distinguish them from block or interlocking signals.

Interlocking signals generally got square ends, and block signals generally got pointed ends.

There are probably nearly as many variations on this as there are signals.  With lower quadrant signals two arms were necessary to get a 3 indication signal with an "approach" aspect.

[henry6]

Combine what I said with what RCDRYE said and find the PRR and/or B&O Rules Book probably from 1950 or before and see what signal indications are shown that match your descriptions.  The number plate should be an indication of location as the number reflects a milepost with a decimal for tenths or hundredths of a mile or at the same location the tenths of a mile with the last number indicating direction, even for eastbound or southbound and odd for westbound or northbound.   Also, find pictures from the era before color lights of the area and see what you can determine or identify.

My DL&W 1952 Book of Rules show the blade used either singly or as the second or lower blade with (my interpretation of the diagrams) the color lights supporting the position of the blade where applicable.  DL&W used a lower quadrant system (down was clear, proceed; diagonal caution, proceed to next signal prepared to stop; horizontal, stop). However the DL&W Rules do not show an "X" indicator in any of the boxes or plates.

[The signalman]

Hey guys,

For what it's worth--The Erie used a letter designation after numbers on many signal to indicate the "Branch"---IE--G--Greenwood Lake----J--New Jersey--New York.  So signal  8-1-J  would be milepost 8--track1 (west) on the New Jersey- New York

[efftenxrfe]

Baffles me...the X being included in the number plate.

1. Definitively, aspects of, indications of, and illustrations  of signals direct from the SP Historical soc. 1960 rulebook are/were on SP Hist Soc home page.

SP,s blades dropped from 180 degrees to near 225 degrees, with no intermediate stop. bear in miind upper-quadrant blades generally had a 135 degree stop, that said to indicate SP's aspects may hint at, but not simulate your machine's.

A couple of asides; the glass in your lenses was strictly composed chemically so that no confusion ocurred. Standard signal green lenses transmitted incandesent bulb light (highly yellow in content) so to look at it in relatively neutral sunlight it sure would look blue...right?...mix yellow paint with blue...result: green.

Second aside: during the late 1970's East Texas Meltdown as a Calif SP officer had a conversation with a local Signal Dept Superviisor in the cab of the train we were "crewing" running from Houston to Hearne in territory semaphores governed.

He did not want any of 'em. More maintenace was required, also testing was more extensive but, here it comes, they were more dangerous.

Not because of being semaphores but because after existing multiple decades in mega-humid East Texas the signal masts had rusted out from the internal side of the mast and they were so weak that climbing on to replace a burnt out signal"s bulb tested that good 'ol bravado...Being a pilgrim-stranger to semaphore ABS operation, SP flavor, and hearing that, and never having seen the track I was running a train with a crew on the caboose, and engine, which was not suicidal, sure encouraged me that the signal maintainers knew what they were talking about.

But why did they think complaining  would reflect on their worth, value, trust worthieness...?

[The signalman]

From what I learned working on them--the blue lens first was used when the signal was lighted by a kerosene lantern which ,as we all know, burns really yellow. For sure--the semaphores were labor intensive. The older type with the chain drive and buffers took a couple hours to really tune up properly.

[henry6]

Again we advise that while these signals are based on the old AAR Code, each railroad had their own adaptations, interpretations, and applications, although most keep close to the Code as possible.  In this instance the blade with fork, the color and stripe, the lenses, and basic use are Code in the DL&W book and probably would be found to be uniform elsewhere.  The plate would usually be a signal number and usually by milepost.  Any letters would be up to the railroad and often there might be another plate or light with letter for further information (take siding, spring switch, train order, track number, crossing over, etc.) again adapted by the local road.   In rapid transit lines I've seen the "X", for instance, used to designate a repeater signal when the operating signal might be obstructed under normal operating conditions blocked by a curve or standing cars or close structure.  So, determining the exact location and use of the blade as well as the authority railroad whose rules book would explain, it where we'll find our answer.

[The signalman]

Y'know guys--just went to the top of this discussion and realized we all may be wrong. If I read it right--the number in question is "cast into the metal"--sounds like a manufacturer designation to me. Any other things we've been talking about would all  be a removeable plate attached to the mast.

[K4sPRR]

The signalman

Y'know guys--just went to the top of this discussion and realized we all may be wrong. If I read it right--the number in question is "cast into the metal"--sounds like a manufacturer designation to me. Any other things we've been talking about would all  be a removeable plate attached to the mast.

Thanks guys for all the input so far.  As noted by Signalman, the five digits followed by the letter X is cast into the head, obviously done during manufacture.  It looks similar to the way the PRR would cast numbers on their items, but they usually had the letter first and I do not know of any railroad that cast their own signal heads or did they?    

[The signalman]

I don't think the railroads bothered to cast their own signal heads--US&S or GRS made most of them as far as I remember.  Part of the package with the rest of the equipment.

I don't remember the numbers cast on the ones I worked on but to be honest---wasn't looking for them either.

Most all parts had a stock number on them to match up with standard plan.  

 

[henry6]

Ok,  first, all the more reason to find the Book of Rules pertaining to this signal and its location.  But, now am curious about how legible are these numbers and the "X"?  Can they be seen by the engineer of a speeding locomotive?  Or are the numbers just stamped or cast so that a signalman or maintainer could ascertain the catalog number?  If so, that would take the numbers and the letter out of the rule book and not be pertinent to operations.

[The signalman]

As far as I know--the only  markings relevant to train operation were in the number plates attached to the mast. And then USUALLY only found on automatic signals---home signals were, as a general rule, unmarked which made their stop indication an absolute as opposed to the automatic " blow and go"

[henry6]

The signalman

As far as I know--the only  markings relevant to train operation were in the number plates attached to the mast. And then USUALLY only found on automatic signals---home signals were, as a general rule, unmarked which made their stop indication an absolute as opposed to the automatic " blow and go"

Concur.  

[rcdrye]

Duh.  A hand-marked (or stenciled) number might have been a signal number.  Cast is almost certainly a part #.   Thanks to TheSignalman for pointing out the obvious.

[The signalman]

Easy enough to get carried away. Having spent a lifetime around railroad signaling, it's fascinating equipment--and in the end--perfectly logical.  When you get down to the basics---they are all the same--doing the same job. Some modification to adapt to local needs but still, all the same. It's amazing how much information a single signal aspect conveys. When you realize what it's telling you--ya have to give a lot of credit to the guys who designed this stuff way back when.

[K4sPRR]

henry6

Or are the numbers just stamped or cast so that a signalman or maintainer could ascertain the catalog number

Yes, they are cast into the metal, they are about one inch in size.  Catalog number would seem to make sense.  Thanks!

[Deggesty]

Henry, would it not be better to say that an odd digit in the last place of a signal number indicates that you are going away from the zero milepost, and an even digit indicates that you are moving towards the zero milepost? Except for the roads that leave their origin in a northerly or easterly direction, odd indicates westward or southward movement, and even indicates eastward or northward movement. And, remember that all mileposts on the SP read from San Francisco, no matter what the actual direction was.

There were some roads that did have mileposts numbered in the thousands, but not very many, and a five digit signal number indicates such a numbering. The size of the numerals (1") gives me the impression that the number is not a signal number, for it would have been extremely difficult to read from a moving train.

Another problem with lower quadrant semaphores, besides having only two positions, was that ice on the arm could overbalance the arm when it should be indicating stop, giving a false indication.

[henry6]

By definition and rule the odd numbers were west or northbound and even numbers east or southbound; this coordinated with train numbering.  And also this was to help maintain the designated direction of travel (sometimes a designated direction of travel was compass opposite.  I like to tell the story of the D&H, a north/south designated railroad, operated freight south out of Binghamton,NY westbound over the Erie to Owego, NY then crossed over to the Lehigh Valley RR eastbound to Sayre, PA.)  As for mileposts, many roads often stopped at 999.99 and resumed at a new zero...usually this was accommodated by a division point or change of divisions and sometimes with a letter designating the different divisions.

As for this semaphore, we pretty much figure the number being part of the casting had nothing to do with railroad signaling because it was to small to see at a distance and from a moving train, and it was not a separate color from the blade.  As for the icing problem for lower quadrant signals, upper quadrant signals had the reverse problem whereby snow or ice would prevent them from clearing!  That's why color lights were added to the signals and eventually replaced all blades.

[Deggesty]

Henry, if you move out of the Northeast, you will find, according to employee timetables, northbound movements and block signals with even numbers and southbound movements and block signals with odd numbers. Consider roads such as Southern, L&N, ACL, SAL. Different roads, different rules.

Sandpoint Junction (on GN/BNSF) is at milepost 1404.3.

[henry6]

No, not necessarily different rules.  Everything away from Los Angeles and Oakland is probably eastbound, everything from San Francisco is southbound.  Each railroad picks it's operating point and general direction of the railroad from that point.  Thus out of NY city area all roads not going to Long Island or New England chose west bound despite the NYC going over a hundred miles north before turning west and the PRR going over a hundred miles south south west before turning west.  On the west coast, all trains leaving Los Angeles and Oakland were considered east bound because they were going away just like any road heading from Chicago to the Pacific coast was west bound no matter how far south or north it went to get there.  A westbound out of Chicago could go west to Seattle then south to Oakland but was considered a westbound all the way to Oakland. And from Chicago to LA via Texas was westbound to either LA or SF but eastbound if from LA to SF.  Gets confusing but the point is that most railroads chose a point on the line as the originating point and designated the operational direction from there and all lines from there and all lines off those lines to be consistent from that point.  Thus it is not the rules that change but the designations that may be different.

[Deggesty]

To be specific concerning the operation of the Southern's Carolina Special (Cincinnati to Charleston, S.C.): from Cincinnati to Harriman Junction, Tenn, the train was southbound (odd number), and the mileposts (and signal numbers) read from Cincinnati. From Harriman Junction to Charleston, the train was eastbound (even number), and there were several variations in the numbering of mileposts and signals: from Harriman Junction to Knoxville, the mileposts read from Knoxville (eb & even); from Knoxville to Morristown, the mileposts read from Bristol (eb & even), from Morristown to Biltmore (just east of Asheville), the mileposts read from Salisbury (eb & even); from Biltmore to Hayne (just west of Spartanburg), the mileposts read from Asheville (eb & odd); from Hayne to East Spartanburg, the mileposts read from Washington (eb & even); from East Spartanburg to Alston the mileposts read from Biltmore (eb & odd), from Alston to Columbia, the mileposts read from Greenville (eb & even); from Columbia to Charleston, the mileposts read from Charleston (eb & even). Note: eb or sb denotes the timetable direction of #27/28 (the number changed at Harriman Jct.

Oh, please re-read your statement in an earlier post concerning the numbering that is determined by direction; as I recall, you stated that by rule certain directions have certain numbers; which is why I stated that different rules apply in different areas, as determined by the company. Thanks.

[efftenxrfe]

Before the "Big Yellow" feverishly applied their version of logic to  timetable direction labels there was almost uniformly on The SPT Co a simple truth; there was only one MP "zero."

I don't KNOW where it was for sure; variousely it was at the Ferry Building on the Bay. or at 65 Market St San Francisco (the general office at the end of an industrial spur from the 3rd and Townsend depot which also might be MP 0 because until the 1906 quake and fire the general office was there. 65 Market became 1 Market Plaza, a new building, same place so it might be MP 0.

  MP 0 was unique 'cause there was where a young man hearing Go West could go no further. And were he to do an "about face" his only choice was to go east: Ogden, Yuma, Portland, Santa Barb, all east.

All west made for some wonderful (as in "What the...) times. Such as: I unfold the depiction printed out with stacks of alpha letter representing car weights where the cars are in the train which had 34 cars of ballast in a pick-up en-route to Oakland from the geo' south; the train otherwise was 100 mty cars going to Roseville, away from MP 0 north and east. It curved around a track which aimed it from to West Oak to away..."about face," right?

See the graph, the GA in the TOPS computer accounting system and you're taking 100 mtys followed by 4000 tons, a veritable sledge hammer if you go thru flat to 2 % descendiing with curves on the descent. The eastbound (then) track off the Martinez bridge at the Sacramento River, a mile from 120 ft above the river to near its level, do the math.

I blew up. "Ain't gonna take it." "Switch the heavies to the head end or get somebody else"

The officer who shortly arrived was savvy to track train dynamics programming and he checked the train: it had 42 TTD problems between Oakland and Roseville, and 124 TTD problems from there to Sparks.

If I haven't bored you, here's the kicker."

The train, heavy car block on the head, appropriate, end went by the geo' south approach to west and avoiding it turned geo' north and east by timetable. OOPS.

Sure hope that Texas governer doesnt sue me for useing his guttoral 4-letter word.

Anyway was the solution. by changing direction from westward (toward MP 0) to eastward away from MP 0 put the block of very heavies on the head end....and with a computer solution....

Highball!

[rrlineman]

according to a lot of PRR prints I have dating back to the 20's if a item is a casting with a part # showing, then that was the original design. and if  the thing that has a "X" after the casting  number, that ment there was a modification done to the original design and then the mold for the casting was changed to refect this. US&S and WABCO was well know for doing this.

[henry6]

rrlineman

according to a lot of PRR prints I have dating back to the 20's if a item is a casting with a part # showing, then that was the original design. and if  the thing that has a "X" after the casting  number, that ment there was a modification done to the original design and then the mold for the casting was changed to refect this. US&S and WABCO was well know for doing this.

I think this is the explanation we are looking for in the original question...and I believe the PRR was one of the roads involved in the local area....all makes sense.