Niagaras on the B&A? Anybody ever see one?

[gmpullman]

A friend of mine asked me the other day if I had ever seen a photo of a New York Central Niagara running on the B&A or anywhere around Boston. I had to admit that I had never seen any documentation proving that the NYC had ever run any of its S class 4-8-4s on the B&A. I was stumped!

A Google search turned up lots of hits for trips from Boston to Niagara Falls. Not what I had in mind

I have seen many photos of them on the rest of the System, even in Cleveland Union Terminal for "clearance tests" and lots of photos on the Big Four and all around Chicago... but on the B&A? Scarce as hens teeth.

Anybody have any dope on the NYC Niagaras on the B&A?

Thanks, ED

[daveklepper]

With normal tender, too long for B&A  turntables.  None seen.   B&A had its own J2 Hudsons with smaller drivers than J1's and J3's, and Mowhawks with the shorter of their typical tenders were often seen.   Rode behind one once.   Of course Berkshires handled the mainline frieghts, sometimes Mowhawks, and Mikados lesser ones.   Rode the the line frequently 1949-1970.

[gmpullman]

Thanks, Dave

I never gave any thought to turntables! In all the dozens of NYC books and on-line references I never came across any mention of S Niagaras even setting foot on the B&A.

My grandfather and several uncles worked on the B&A and B&M around the Ware River Branch, (Barre Plains,) and Palmer, Webster Jct., Spencer and W. Brookfield area.

Thanks for the info! Ed

[selector]

I was under the impression that the S1b was too long for even the NYC's turntables, or most of them.  Yet, they were turned by backing the tender up over lifting bars, or else they just jacked up the last couple of axles so that the wheel flanges wouldn't impede the rotation of the turntable.  I have read of such accounts, but I can't say where.

Crandell

[daveklepper]

That was probably the case where they ran for clearance ttests or specials, but it  would appear unlikely at a   place like Harmon tjhaat they visited regularlly.  But I may be  wrong on this.

The B&A was quite independent in some respects with regard to motive power.   Its Hudsons were built by Lima, had square sand domes.  No other part of the Central had Berkshhires until the    P&LE got   some a road partially owned by the Central.

[wjstix]

The Niagaras had a big overhang at the rear of the tender that allowed them to fit on the NYC turntables. I've never seen or heard of them ever being on the B&A however.

[tomikawaTT]

The Niagaras were designed to fit the NYC system standard 100 foot turntable.  Unlike AT&SF (two 8 wheel buckeye trucks) or UP (4-10 pedestal) tenders, they were not routinely jacked.

B&A didn't have 100 foot turntables.

Chuck

[daveklepper]

B&A turntables were shorter than standard NYC.

[doctorwayne]

daveklepper

....The B&A was quite independent in some respects with regard to motive power.   Its Hudsons were built by Lima, had square sand domes.  No other part of the Central had Berkshhires until the    P&LE got   some a road partially owned by the Central.

The B&A's Hudsons were built with regular sand boxes, but they were replaced with the shop-built squared-off ones not too long after delivery, I think.  I have a photo of one with the original style, in a book.

Wayne

[daveklepper]

An even better illustration of their independence!   More sand capacity for the grades encountered.

[carnej1]

 I took it with a grain of salt but once at a train show I was told by an older railfan (who had fond memories of watching Steam on the B&A in his Youth) that NYC once ran a Niagara up the B&A to Worcester Union station as a PR event. Presumably they would have had to find some way to turn the locomotive on a wye as the turntables at Worcester were not long enough.

I have never seen any documentation of this story but the gentlemen in question seemed certain it had occured. He also mentioned that Niagara's never ran in regular service on the Boston line due to clearance issues as discussed in this thread.

[daveklepper]

There is in effect a wye at Worcester, or at least was.      Coming from Boston on the B&A you can turn south on the NYNH&H to Groton/New London, go straight ahead to Springfield and Albany, or turn North to Ayer and Lowell on the B&M-Guildord-PanAm, formerly also to Winchendon.

[carnej1]

daveklepper

There is in effect a wye at Worcester, or at least was.      Coming from Boston on the B&A you can turn south on the NYNH&H to Groton/New London, go straight ahead to Springfield and Albany, or turn North to Ayer and Lowell on the B&M-Guildord-PanAm, formerly also to Winchendon.

I'm familiar with the trackage you speak of as that is where Providence & Worcesters main yard and shops are located but I was uncertain as to whether that track configuration existed in New Haven days.  It makes sense given that the P&W's main line was all part of the New Haven..

[daveklepper]

Basicallly, yes, with minor changes

[Ron High]

There was in fact a wye in South Worcester yard on the New Haven. One side was the P&W main and yard where the diesel house built about 1952 to replace the roundhouse.on the other side was the N&W main and yard track .The third part was the Humpyard which came off the N&W main down to the P&W side in a sharp sloping curve  The yard had 26 tracks and was used as a manual hump with riders and a speeder car for the riders to return to the top. It was used as a hump into the late 1940s at  least. It was still somewhat used to classify and switch cars until the end of new Haven days.  I used to watch them switch cars in the 1960s . That junction of the Humpyard and N&W was where the main yard office was .The brick building at the junction of the N&W and P&W which now serves the P&W as a dispatch and operation center was a crew dormitory in NH days

Ron High.

[cefinkjr]

daveklepper

[Jacking tender axles to clear turntable leads] was probably the case where they ran for clearance tests or specials, but it  would appear unlikely at a   place like Harmon that they visited regularly.  But I may be  wrong on this.

I don't know if there was a problem with the Niagara's length on Harmon's turntable, but I do know that they were typically turned on the balloon track there (that's a reversing loop for the model railroaders among us).  I've seen pictures of many classes, including the Niagaras on that balloon track.  It was particularly interesting (unique?) in that it crossed over all four mains on a through girder overpass, a true fly-over..