Question about this PRR T1 photo

[Utley26]

Please see the photo of the engineer standing in front of his T1 on the front page of this site:

http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/prrt1.php

My question - are those indicator lights of some kind on either side of the boiler (about even with the top of the keystone)?  I've seen some T1's with these, and others without.   If they are lights, what color were they and what were they used for?  And if they are not lights, what are they? 

Thanks

 

[timz]

PRR had some single track on the line to St Louis, so maybe engines still had to be able to show white signals on an extra train circa 1945? But as I recall by then they never ran second sections of regular trains, so no need for green signals even on the St Louis line. And probably no need for any kind of signals on most PRR mains where T1s ran.

[BaltACD]

The ability to display class light was a statuatory requirement during the period of steam.

[timz]

http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc5434_tdr.jpg

Did any NY Central J3a's have class lights?

[Utley26]

Thanks for the info so far.  I guess my question is a little more naive; what exactly did these lights indicat?  What colors were used and what did they mean?

Thanks for any info

[BaltACD]

Utley26

Thanks for the info so far.  I guess my question is a little more naive; what exactly did these lights indicat?  What colors were used and what did they mean?

Thanks for any info

In Timetable & Train Order railroading, trains operating on a line segment had to be identified.  Trains were identified by either being scheduled in the timetable or extra trains.  When a train was identified as a Extra train it would be identified in train orders by it's engine number and direction of movement. ie. Extra 1444 West;  To become a extra train the Train Dispatcher would issue a train order stating 'Eng 1444 run Extra A to Z' with A & Z being the origin and destination.  When running extra WHITE class lights had to be displayed on engine 1444.

Scheduled trains were identified in the employee timetables and were generally in one of three categories - First Class (normally Passenger Trains), Second Class (normally priority freight trains), Third Class (could encompass virtually any recurring type of train - frequently Local Freights).  These scheduled trains would be referred to in Train Orders by both the schedule number and engine number ie. No 1 Eng 1400, as a only section of the schedule it would display NO class lights.  IF there were the need to run more than one train on a particular schedule, the first operating train on that schedule would be referred to as 'First No 1 Eng 1400 and that train would be required to display GREEN class lights to signify that there would be another section of No 1 following.  If there were the need for more that two sections of that particular schedule then the Second No 1 would also display GREEN class lights.  The last section of the schedule number would display NO class lights. 

If a engine were at the rear of a train with it's front end facing the rear, it would display RED class lights as Markers to denote the rear end of the train.

In Scheduled Timetable & Train Order territory, First Class schedules were for regularly schedule passenger trains.  Second and Third Class schedules were tools of the Train Dispatcher to facilitate operation of the territory.  By rule schedules would remain in effect for 12 hours unless fulfilled or annulled.  It was not that uncommon for a freight train running on a Second Class schedule to run into trouble and at some point during it's trip, exceed being 12 hours late on it's designated schedule.  When that happened, the train would have to get the necessary train orders to set it up to run as a Extra Train

A train is defined as a Engine with or without cars displaying markers.  If a light engine move was being made with no caboose, markers would be displayed on the rear of the steam engine tender to denote the rear of the train.  When meeting trains, crews had to identify the engine number and observe the markers for the train to know that they had met the COMPLETE train - nothing worse than having met a train that left 1 or more cars behind on the main track and for the opposing train to meet those cars at speed because they had not observed the markers on the train they met.

[timz]

To summarise: PRR passenger trains after 1940 would ordinarily not show any signals on the engine --many engines lacked the lights needed to show them. By then most PRR freights didn't need them either. Other RRs might use green signals and most used white, but usually not PRR.

[Utley26]

Excellent, thanks guys.  That was helpful.

[BaltACD]

One other thing I might add - on territories where CTC rules were in effect, or where the territories where there was multiple tracks and no segments of single track that was not operated on Timetable and Train Order rules - all trains except scheduled passenger trains ran as Extra trains and NO class lights would be displayed.

[timz]

He probably meant to say the extra trains displayed white signals, and the scheduled trains displayed none. Again he is speaking of RRs in general; on PRR multiple track after 1940 few if any trains displayed signals.

[K4sPRR]

July 16, 1939 the PRR discontinued the use of classification lights on locomotives and moved the marker lights from the pilot area to the boiler where they functioned as a modified marker.  The lamps placed in the forward position and reportedly had two colors, red and yellow.  On the T1 this light was very similar to those used on the GG1, the box displayed the engine number on the side.

Operating rules on the PRR for certain territories (Rule 19) mandated that a locomotive use either the red or yellow light to indicate what track they were using, this displayed more commonly on the rear of the train.  This was used by the PRR until 1956.  Red was required when the locomotive was making a backward move.  Guess it was the PRR's unique way of doing things and sometimes to an over kill.

Some T1 photo's show the markers, others do not as indicated by the numerous photo's seen when The Keystone magazine had several articles on the locomotive.  Builder photo's from Baldwin of the first two T1's had no boiler mounted marker or engine number board.  Being after 1939 Baldwin probably seen no need for them.   Territorial assignments were also affected by these rules, so that and the date of the photograph may give clue as to some having them and others not.

Yahoo Groups, PRR-Fax list has a discussion from 2003 covering this topic in more detail.   

[timz]

In case it wasn't clear: Rule 19 covers markers-- the lights at the rear of the train. Nothing to do with anything at the front. If the engine is running backwards pushing cars then it's supposed to show markers.

[K4sPRR]

Hi Timz,

Some rail buffs and I are having a discussion about markers and rule 19 that maybe you can be of assistance.  Lets say a T1 is on the #2 passenger siding, he has some headend cars and three coach cars.  He has to move forward beyond the switch so he can make a move backward on the passenger siding  that parallels the mainline to get the rest of his train.  When moving backward does the front end now have to conform to rule 19 as if he were the rear end, and if so following the PRR rule does he show yellow and red, or just red?  Now that the back of the train is in a lead move, what rules apply on that end?  Conductor protecting the same as backing into lets say Chicago Union Station, or someone on the ground protecting?  I got five dollars on this, I'll split it with you if I win, if not you owe me $2.50.

Thanks!!  

[timz]

As you've noticed the rulebook doesn't answer that, and I know nothing beyond that.

[BaltACD]

First off - I am not familiar with PRR Rules.

The moves that you have stated do not mention any movement on the Main Track(s) - as such, whatever rules apply to operating on other than Main Tracks would apply.  Rule 19 I would expect to be for operations on Main Tracks and thus would not apply.

[daveklepper]

To answer one other question, yes, NYC (and B&A) Hudsons did have classification lights.and the Amerian Flyer HO J-1A and Lionel O and OO J3A models included them.

[timz]

Anyone found a pic of a J3 with class lights?

The A2s had them; did any other NY Central steam engine built after 1937 have them?