I know that the New Haven used both Penn Station and GCT for their passenger trains and assume that Boston to Washington trains went to Penn Station and Boston to New York trains used GCT.
What was the junction on the New Haven used to route trains to either station?
Also, I just found out the Lehigh Valley passenger trains also used Penn Station. Where did the LV switch from steam/ diesel to electric power and what road furnished the electric motors? Did this arrangement continue until the end of LV passenger service-approximately 1961?
Did any other railroads used Penn Station or GCT?
Am I correct to assume that other railroads used various New Jersey terminals with ferry and motor coach from New Jersey to Manhattan?
The "Forum" is an excellent way for a railfan to ask about railroading in the past.
Thank you,
Ed Burns
Retired NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Northtown (Minneapolis)
NP Eddie I know that the New Haven used both Penn Station and GCT for their passenger trains and assume that Boston to Washington trains went to Penn Station and Boston to New York trains used GCT. What was the junction on the New Haven used to route trains to either station? New Rochelle, NY was tge split. Also, I just found out the Lehigh Valley passenger trains also used Penn Station. Where did the LV switch from steam/ diesel to electric power and what road furnished the electric motors? Did this arrangement continue until the end of LV passenger service-approximately 1961? Hunter Tower (mp10.5 from PRR JC) where the LV took off, wired for about a half mile so that PRR GG1's could cut off and LV power attach. Today NJT still uses the connection from the Corridor to the CR Lehigh Line to Aldene and the former CNJ, now Raritan Valley LIne, to HIgh Bridge. Did any other railroads used Penn Station or GCT? B&O for a time under USRA (WW). Am I correct to assume that other railroads used various New Jersey terminals with ferry and motor coach from New Jersey to Manhattan? B&O and Reading used CNJ's Jersey City Terminal joining the CNJ at Bound Brook, NJ. LV actually used its own terminal in JC at one point, then PRR's Exchange Place, Jersey CIty before going into New York Penn. The New York, Ontario and Western used the West Shore (NYC) terminal in Weehawken and the New York Susquehanna and Western the Erie Terminal at Jersey City. Erie later (late 50's) used Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western's Hoboken Terminal until full Erie merge with DL&W to form Erie-Lackawanna (1959). There are several books on commuter railroads that pretty well duplicate each other but give good summaries of area operations. So will histories of each of the individual road's named, histories of New York's Pennsylvania Station. Also Don Ball did several color picture books with good depictions of operations. The "Forum" is an excellent way for a railfan to ask about railroading in the past. Thank you, Ed Burns Retired NP-BN-BNSF Clerk from Northtown (Minneapolis)
What was the junction on the New Haven used to route trains to either station? New Rochelle, NY was tge split.
Also, I just found out the Lehigh Valley passenger trains also used Penn Station. Where did the LV switch from steam/ diesel to electric power and what road furnished the electric motors? Did this arrangement continue until the end of LV passenger service-approximately 1961? Hunter Tower (mp10.5 from PRR JC) where the LV took off, wired for about a half mile so that PRR GG1's could cut off and LV power attach. Today NJT still uses the connection from the Corridor to the CR Lehigh Line to Aldene and the former CNJ, now Raritan Valley LIne, to HIgh Bridge.
Did any other railroads used Penn Station or GCT? B&O for a time under USRA (WW).
Am I correct to assume that other railroads used various New Jersey terminals with ferry and motor coach from New Jersey to Manhattan? B&O and Reading used CNJ's Jersey City Terminal joining the CNJ at Bound Brook, NJ. LV actually used its own terminal in JC at one point, then PRR's Exchange Place, Jersey CIty before going into New York Penn. The New York, Ontario and Western used the West Shore (NYC) terminal in Weehawken and the New York Susquehanna and Western the Erie Terminal at Jersey City. Erie later (late 50's) used Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western's Hoboken Terminal until full Erie merge with DL&W to form Erie-Lackawanna (1959).
There are several books on commuter railroads that pretty well duplicate each other but give good summaries of area operations. So will histories of each of the individual road's named, histories of New York's Pennsylvania Station. Also Don Ball did several color picture books with good depictions of operations.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
NH trains from Boston split here http://binged.it/HDAEN4 .
One odd feature of the NH-PRR route was the Hell Gate bridge toll, which made the fare from Boston to Newark more than the sum of the fares, Boston to NY plus NY to Newark. No idea how easy it was to take advantage of that by buying two tickets.
LV trains changed power about here http://binged.it/HDBPfh . The present 45 mph connection to the PRR main dates from 1997-- LV trains used a 15 mph connection. HABS/HAER has an aerial of the old connection-- if you're interested we can look it up.
timz NH trains from Boston split here http://binged.it/HDAEN4 . One odd feature of the NH-PRR route was the Hell Gate bridge toll, which made the fare from Boston to Newark more than the sum of the fares, Boston to NY plus NY to Newark. No idea how easy it was to take advantage of that by buying two tickets. LV trains changed power about here http://binged.it/HDBPfh . The present 45 mph connection to the PRR main dates from 1997-- LV trains used a 15 mph connection. HABS/HAER has an aerial of the old connection-- if you're interested we can look it up.
1) Yes. New Rochelle, NY
2) Never heard the "toll" story before; it actually doesn't make much sense. PRR to NYPenn from the west, NH from Penn sta to the north east; two different railroads but with through ticketing D.C. to Boston like any other interline ticket. Distance New Rochelle to Penn Station longer than to Grand Central, so the NH fare was probably higher than to GCT. But "toll" story is not familiar to say the least.
3) Hunter Tower was always the LV interchange with the PRR for their passenger trains, well before 1997 in fact. CNJ, however, had some changes from late 50's when the NJ Aldene plan was effected. CNJ trains left the CNJ tracks onto the LV track at Aldene section of Cranford and proceeded to Hunter and the PRR main into Newark, then tying up in Hudson Yard east of the Passaic River. NJT still carries on this operation today: Raritan Valley Line to CSAO to Amtrak. But it had nothing to do with LV trains as LV was out of the passenger business in Feb. 1960.
Edit: 2) to add NR-GCT and NR to NYP milage difference factor.
Passenger fare from any (?) NH point was the same to GCT or to NY Penn-- the general principle of having the same fare to two terminals in the same city (?) apparently took precedence over the toll. But the fare Boston-Washington would be a bit more than Boston-NY plus NY-Washington, because of the Hell Gate toll.
If I remember what I read some years ago. The Boston Washington fare was 25 cents over the Boston New York Penn - New York Penn Washington fare.
The rationale was that Boston-New York fare was competing between Penn Station & Grand Central. Whereas the thru tariffs did not need to be competitive.
Thx IGN
The difference was Hell Gate bridge and approaches were owned by the
New York Connecting Railroad. Although just a "paper" company it got
a division of the fare!
The New York Connecting was a joint subsidiary of PRR and NH and also included the Bay Ridge branch. It may not have received a division of passenger fares and freight rates but the "toll" in question may have been a part of lease payments.
NY Times 20 Dec 1951 p33 tells about it. Hell Gate toll was 75 cents until the general 20% fare increase in 1920 when it went to 90 cents, where it apparently stayed until the 1960s at least.
The 4/62 timetables show one-way coach fares (not incl 10% fed tax)
New Haven to NY $3.43
NY to Philadelphia 3.91
And New Haven to Philadelphia was 8.24.
Bridgeport to NY was 2.69, Bridgeport to Phila 7.50.
NY to Washington 9.68, Bridgeport to Washington 2.69 plus 9.68 plus 0.90 equals 13.27.
The 9/40 NH timetable shows Boston to NY $4.60 and Boston to Washington $10.00; it doesn't show NY to Washington but $4.50 would be a good bet.
Hell of a toll !! LOL.
On a very few occasions, I took a chance in traveling coach bettween Boston and Washington by buying a Boston-NY ticket, takiing the train to Penn, then dashing upstairs to the ticket counter to buy a NY-Washington ticket and return to the train just before departure.
Tickets were interchangeable when reading NY-Boston, good from and to either NY station.
In the summer of 1970. after the PC merger but before Amtrak, a lady friend and I went to a Shakespear performance at the Stratford theatre, which can be seen from the NEC train windows.
At the time, there was actually one Boston train that stopped there! Goin. the train pulled by a GG1. (From Penn, of course) We had a dining car meal, got off in time, enjoyed the play, then returned anti-clamacticly on a washboard (4400's) mu local-express to GCT.
The Long Island is a railroad (Rail Road) and it did use Penn Station (assuming you were speaking of the pre-Amtrak era - 1971). There are other railroads that used Penn Station, BUT their trains were hauled by Penn Electrics from Washington and up north. SAL, ACL, SCL are just a few "foreign" stuff (there were no PRR equipment - maybe some express cars).
If the B&O (USRA era) used Penn Station station, I can assume the trains were hauled with PRR electrics.
EMD History Researcher The Long Island is a railroad (Rail Road) and it did use Penn Station (assuming you were speaking of the pre-Amtrak era - 1971). There are other railroads that used Penn Station, BUT their trains were hauled by Penn Electrics from Washington and up north. SAL, ACL, SCL are just a few "foreign" stuff (there were no PRR equipment - maybe some express cars). If the B&O (USRA era) used Penn Station station, I can assume the trains were hauled with PRR electrics.
In fact the LIRR started regular service in and out of Penn before the PRR did. Still uses it today, too, along with NJT and owner Amtrak. New Haven of course was a tenant, and like the LIRR, used their own equpment and power in and out; Lehigh Valley's passenger trains were hauled in and out by GG1's to Hunter Tower and onto the LV track where the engine swap took place. (LV at one time also went to PRR's Exchange Pl, Jersey City, with its own power.) B&O was earlier than the catenaried PRR into Penn but had to change to the 3rd rail power at Manhatten Transfer just like all PRR trains of the time did. NJT operated the PRR-PC and NY&LB services into Penn adding the Morris & Essex Midtown Direct I think in 1992 bringing the former DL&W services in. I don 't believe Reading trains ever went to Penn but went to CNJ's JC Terminal which also was host to the B&O except for the WWI era Penn Sta. required service.
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