I see in the photo a person is standing in the doorway of what I would believe would be the fireman's position on a Camelback. Am I right? If this was the fireman's position, how did the engineer and fireman communicate? Was the engine hand-fired or was there an automatic system of some sort.
As a kid in the late 40's I used to watch these Camelbacks steaming through Plainfield, NJ.
Yep, that's the fireman's spot all right...back there to be close to the coal so he could shovel with not problem...so, yep, too, it was a hand fired job. Communication from engineer to fireman was, in theory, non existant. A fireman was supposed to know his job and the engineer his. If the engineer and fireman knew each other, worked with each other often enough, and liked and respected each other, this was no problem. However, practicly, they either invented a hand or whistle code or used holding back water or steam or air so that guage would give a reading of some import or significance which would tell the other whatever. This lack of ability for either to communicate with the other in a practical manner is what made the locomotives go out of style quickly despite some advantages to sight and savings of lenght. Firemen were also exposed to the elimements and the engineer not so much which caused jealousy amongst the ranks. The wide fire box for anthracite coal was a good idea and worked for the bottom line but not for safety nor for long range use.
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And there were end-cb locomotives with wide ("Wooten") fireboxes, the CNJ and Reading Pacifics for example, also D&H Consoladations.
I've always been fascinated by camelbacks but since I grew up in the midwest I never got to see one in person - just photos. This thread got me to thinking of several questions about these engines. Was there a seat box for the fireman to sit on when he wasn't standing and actually firing the engine? Obviously there were a boiler pressure and water gauge in the fireman's "cab"; were there similar gauges in the engineer's cab which he could monitor? While I think of camelbacks mostly as passenger engines on commuter trains, I believe they were also used in freight service which I assume would require a head brakeman in addition to the engineer and fireman. Did this brakeman ride in the fireman's cab, behind the engineer, or in a separate cab on the left side of the boiler? One of the several safety drawbacks of the camelbacks would be the inability of the fireman to observe and call out to the engineer the aspect of the signals they approached.
Mark
Yes, KCSfan, these were dangrous locomotives to operate and be around. The cab often was not all the way across the engine, either, so a head brakeman on a freight was just riding. There was a seat for the fireman in his "cab" but since it was a hand bomber why should he be seated? I do believe most of the time the guages were duplicated for engineers but the real problem was the inability for either to see each other especilly since the engineer was always looking forward instead of to the rear where the firman was. It was an idea to accomodate the wider firebox for burning anthracite coal but became more and more unwiledly as locomotives got bigger and bigger. Safety for crew and train prevailed and locmotive which were't cut up had their cabs removed from the perch and placed at the firebox door end of the boiler.
There's a CNJ camelback on display at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, I've been there several times and said "hello" to the old girl, being a "Big Little Railroad" fan. There's no seat box for the fireman, at least not that I could see. There IS a cab on the left side of the boiler barrel but I THINK that was for the head-end brakeman should there be one on board. And yes, as powerful and good-performing as they were for their size (that's why they lasted so long on the CNJ) they were never very popular with the crews. As time went by and locomotives got bigger designers figured out how to hang a conventional cab around a Wooten firebox. Oh, and one other danger of the camelback design was the engineer sitting right over the drivers and connectiing rods. If one of those rods came loose at speed, well what's the saying, "hair, teeth and eyeballs..."? However, I don't think it happened all that often, if it happened at all.
Yes it happened, but not often. "Train Wrecks" by Robert C. Reed, contains teo pictures of main rod failure on camel backs, one D&H, one CNJ. They are on page 130 and 131. Scary pictures!
Tim
Rikers Yard Yes it happened, but not often. "Train Wrecks" by Robert C. Reed, contains teo pictures of main rod failure on camel backs, one D&H, one CNJ. They are on page 130 and 131. Scary pictures! Tim
You know Rikers Yard, you're right. I just pulled out my copy of Reeds "Train Wrecks" and looked at the pictures. The shot of the D&H Camel is downright gruesome. The CNJ 583 doesn't look TOO bad, but I wouldn't have wanted to have been the engineer on that one either.
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