Limiteds.... How?

[Noah Hofrichter]

Hi everyone. A few of you may know me from the trains and model railroader forums, as I have up to this point stayed mainly over there. I do have a question now, that I know you folks can answer.

My Mom had gotten a subscription to Classic Trains a few years ago, before I was interested in trains, and I rediscovered the issues and have been reading them. I was reading the winter 2002 issue, about three trains that are first started a hundred years ago, the Golden state limited, the 20th century limited,
and the Broadway limited. My questions is this, how is does a train get classified limited? I would assume it has to do with how many times it runs or some thing, am I correct?

Noah

[tpatrick]

Hi Noah,

You're on the right track, but not quite there. As I understand it, a limited stopped at only a limited number of cities along its route, rather stopping at all of them. The Erie Limited, for example passed by Andover, Belmont and Friendship, in New York. The slower Atlantic Express (eastbound) and Pacific Express (W/B) did stop at those towns. The Lake Cities, not called a limited, did not stop there either. Don't take this as the last word, though. Someone may correct me with a better answer.

[AltonFan]

tpatrick is generally right. "Limited" (and "Express") were applied to passenger trains that made only the most important stops as opposed to locals which generally stopped at every station along the line.

[Anonymous]

Limiteds was named by the number of stops it made. Or how many cars that was on the train. Most limiteds was all first class trains. My HO scale "EASTERN RAILROAD" has a limited. It is the Silver Champion. Model after the Super Chief. I did not go and modeled the Chief, but thats how it turn out.

[Noah Hofrichter]

Thanks guys for your responses, I really appreciate it. I learned something today.

Noah

[Anonymous]

Thank you--I've been wondering about that myself lately.
-Daniel

[Kozzie]

Hey Noah - thanks for that Q - One I have been wondering too, about that term
and thanks to everyone involved for the feedback.

Dave
(Kozzie)

[agentatascadero]

Limited stops :yes, limited length :no. Many, but not all, were limited to first class only.

[Anonymous]

The other thing you guys shoud crank into the equation is that the Limited designation was applied when the service was named and schedule developed. Many of those trains remained limiteds over the length of their lives, and some were good operations up to the end (the Capitol comes to mind as a great example). But, over time, some others of those Limited trains kept the name but got downgraded significantly as other services were developed. Here's an example from down our way. The Katy Limited started out in the 1800's as the top train on the line, carrying Pullman palace cars and offering (for its day) the finest level of service over the length of the line. Then came the Katy Flyer, then the Texas Special and Bluebonnet. By the time the train got annulled in the early 50's, it was worst-class--an all-stops mail train carrying primarily a rider coach, BUT the Limited name was still there.

Makes for a good historical research project on your favorite road.

[Mark300]

Here in the Philadelphia region, SEPTA still runs Limited and Express passenger trains.

Limited trains are 'limited' to certain prescribed stations or stops (Sometimes to drop passengers only or to meet another train for transfer of passengers). If you examine a timetable, these trains may stop for a grouping of stations and skip others.

In the Express mode, a train simply runs to a point and skips all stations between; now heres the tricky part - once the train reaches a certain point as an express, it may end its run or 'revert' and continue to make 'local' stops or 'limited' stops.

In this system, the Limited trains appear to make all stops close to the city and may jump to the end of the line as a final stop. Express trains run a fair distance from the city center to a point and then may make stops on out to the end of the line. (Hopefully this makes sense; It seems to when looking at a timetable.)

While this seems confusing it appears that each railroad operates differently depending on its circumstance or locality. I notice the Conductors using these terms very routinely and very carefully (& often loudly) in annoucing train movements (often with many commuters getting up & racing off the train).

Roads that ran between cities in different regions I am told, used a similar system; conductors & other RR personnel all have to know this stuff and while the concept is generally accepted, the details do vary from road to road. This is what my railroading ancestors called 'the Knowledge.' (of the road).

In considering terminology used by railroads for passenger (& some kinds of freight) service, there are 'Local(s),' 'Limited(s),' 'Express,' 'Extra(s)' & 'Special(s).'

It would be interesting to hear of any experiences defining a particular trains' reputation as a 'Limited' or 'Express.' For instance in Philly, we have the 'Paoli Local' (Sort of) but nothing that has the reputation as an Express or Limited.

Incidently, Labor Day is always a good time to remember those who labored and served our nation on its railroads - past & present.

Mark

[Wdlgln005]

Think of the Limited as the fastest train on the line. Locomotives will be fueled to allow longer distance runs between stops, and shorter dwell times. The Limited may be an all coach day train designed to run from city to city in a day's time or less. Overnight trains may handle the beggage, mail & express. An accomodation train will make most all of the stops, or be flagged down more frequently.
A lot of this depends on the development of cities & towns along the route. The intermediate station must be busy enough for the train to stop & pick up or discharge passengers quickly.
There may also be special runs that will last for a season. Think Florida bound trains in the winter. Many of the towns hit by the hurricanes began as refuges in the 20's. Some trains carried extra cars or extra trains were made up to carry all the traffic.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Interurban lines generally had a more consistent classification system.
A local stopped everywhere, including every unmanned flagstop and potentially at every intersection where street running was involved.
An express stopped only at stations with agents and more important unmanned flagstops.
A limited stopped only at certain stations with agents.

Locals were generally non-existent on any interurban that managed to survive past the Depression and World War II. For example, South Shore Line operated Gary expresses and South Bend limiteds, with the limiteds skipping several stops between Chicago and Gary.

[jeffhergert]

Last weekend I bought a few old Railroad Magazine issues from the 1950s. This question was in one of the issues in the Information Booth column.
Their answer was that originally "limited" originally referred to seating capacity on certain trains. The term evolved to mean in the modern sense to limited stops has previously posted.

[Anonymous]

Interesting the subject of the Golden State Limited was brought up, as I am attempting to model in HO, this train from around 1910. I am assuming the cars were Pullman Palace, since Pullman started making heavyweights in 1908. What I haven't been able to find any information on (including the RITS web page on consists) is the locomotive type or types normally used.

I do train shows, and so far have modeled the Golden State from the late 50s and early 30s.

Anyone's assistance would be appreciated.

Paul Swartzendruber
Rockland Model Train and Traction Club
Spring Valley, NY

[Anonymous]

There is set of criteria that had to be met for a train to be called a "Limited" The word Limited however does connote a sense of speed and exclusivity. In naming their trains railroads often attached Limited to the names of their best trains on a particular route.
Examples of which are The Broadway Limited (PRR), the 20th Century Limited (NYC),
the Panama Limited (IC), the Erie Limited (Erie), the North Coast Limited (NP), the Golden State Limited (RI/SP), the Sunset Limited (SP), etc.

The word Limited did not always signify a top notch, speedy train to wit the following account of a trip I took on the Pennsy's Manhattan Limited in the early 1960's.
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In February 1962 I had to travel from Chicago to New York on personal business at my own expense. To save money I chose to ride coach to Pittsburg then switch to a Pullman roomette for the balance of the trip. I had to be in New York for a Monday morning meeting so I elected to ride the PRR's Manhattan Limited which was the only train that carried both coaches and Pullmans with an early morning scheduled arrival at Penn Station.

Despite it's high sounding name the Manhattan Limited's "leisurely" schedule should have tipped me off that this was not going to be a pleasure trip but rather an endurance contest. This train took about 8 hours longer than the Broadway did, but what the heck I enjoyed train travel and I was saving money. My next clue came as I passed through the gates at Union Station in Chicago onto the platform and saw that the Manhattan Limited consisted of a single Pullman, a diner, two coaches and a variety of head end equipment. Not exactly the consist of a luxury flyer.

I settled into a reclining seat in the the lead coach which was comfortable but a bit threadbare and definitely not spotless. The floor was dirty and you could barely see through the windows for the exterior grime. The equipment on this train had definitely not been through the car washer in some time!

The first couple of hours out of Chicago were uneventful and as a railfan I was happy just to be on board a train again and was beginning to overlook the Manhattan Limited's deficiencies though I did notice that my car was beginning to get a bit chilly. Around one o'clock I headed back to the nearly vacant diner for lunch and was shown to a seat by an unsmiling Steward. My waiter was curt and unfriendly also, and the two of them combined made me feel like I was an unwanted annoyance. Up until this time, on trains all over the country, I had never encountered a dining car crew that wasn't courteous, affable and welcomed me as a guest and valued patron. As I looked around it was obvious that this car and the tableware too were far from being spotless. The toast on my club sandwich was burned on one side and the mayo tasted a bit rancid but, being a railfan, the rumble of the wheels under the car floor and the clikety clack of the rail joints made up for these shortcomings.

When I returned to my coach seat the car was uncomfortably cold and the conductor told me the heat was out and I'd be well advised to move to the other coach. So I promptly gathered my belongings and made the move. After a while this car became almost unbearably hot and it was obvious the thermostat was malfunctioning. I decided the stifling heat was preferable to the now freezing cold of my original car. Even as a dedicated railfan I was beginning to realize this was going to be a trip to be endured rather than enjoyed.

Somewhere in Ohio we made an unscheduled stop of better than a hour. Once underway again I learned from a crewman that the condensate in the brake line on one of the head end cars had frozen up causing all the following cars to be without brakes. The faulty car had been set out on a siding so we could resume our eastward odyssey. That evening I had another very non-descript meal in the diner, but by this time I had long since resigned myself to the unpleasantries of this particular trip.

We finally limped into Pittsburg some four hours late and only about 30 minutes ahead of the Broadway Limited. By this time I doubted that the Manhattan Limited would make Penn Station by Noon and frankly didn't give a *** if it ever got there! I couldn't bear the prospect of another 10-12 hours on that train so I grabbed my suitcase, headed into the station and changed my reservation to a roomette on the Broadway. Once on board I collapsed into my berth totally exhausted by the rigors of the past 14 hours and slept like a log. The Broadway got to NYC almost on time and I had slept so late we were already in Penn Station and I still hadn't finished shaving and getting dressed. I regretted not having gotten up earlier to enjoy the amenities that the Broadway Limited still afforded.

[Anonymous]

drephpe was quite right about how the name limited stuck although the train was no longer a 'limited'. The Alton Limited when it debuted made a very limited number of stops from Chicago to St.Louis. Over the years as train-offs decreased the frequency of trains, more station stops were added.

The 'express' label, even before 1890, was a joke. It probably more accurately described where you could send an express package; before REA was formed, there were many express companies (Wells Fargo, for example) allied with the various railroads.

The locals, milk trains, plugs, or whatever they were nicknamed, were often called accomodations as almost anyone could flag one down almost anywhere along the line and thus were very accomodating.

Art