"I often wondered whether they added a second dining car for those few coaches."
During the Christmas/New Years heavy travel times of the late 1960s as many as five light weight chair cars would be carried on the Super Chief section. A lunch counter diner and a lounge/dormitory was in-between the chair cars and the sleeping cars for use by the passengers in the chair cars.
I was an ATSF special agent during this period and would be assigned to ride the Super Chief to make sure the coach passengers did not interfere with the train's other passengers. Never had any real problems and would get off at Shopton, Iowa, and return to Chicago on No. 8. Usually rode the engine as it arrived under the trainshed at Dearborn Station. The rider car was often 25 car-lengths back, well beyond the platforms, and if there was snow on the ground walking to the depot became a chore.
The Chief added coaches in 1/54 when it got its new schedule, matching the UP's new Challenger that started the same day.
And did not the Chief carry coaches before it was discontinued? Or did it remain all PUllman while operated?
You are right, Dave, that the Santa Fé provided excellent service on its through trains.
The first Super Chief did carry cars with sections–Laguna and Isleta each had 8 sections, a drawing room and 2 compartments. The second Super Chief (1938; it made twice-weekly service possible) had three cars with sections–Chimayo had 17 roomettes and 1 section, and Talwiwi and Tyuonyi each had 8 sections, 2 compartments and 2 bedrooms.
As well as I can tell, without digging Guides out, it was not until after the War that it became an all-room train–and the Chief still carried at least one car with sections (in 1950, it was a 6-6-4 that ran between Washington and Los Angeles, in connection with the B&O).
Johnny
The Chief was not a secondary train in the derrogative sense. Neither were the Texas Chief, and San Francisco Chief, the San Diegans, or really any AT&SF through train. All Sante Fe passengers were treated well, with the railroad pioneering reclining seats and air-conditioning in heavyweight coaches even before the streamliner era. And Fred Harvey food and service in its dining cars was uniformly excellent on all its train, just extra special excellent on the Chief and Super Chief.
However, once the Super Chief was in operation, there is no doubt that the Chief took second place to the Super. The Super was always and all-room train, or at least it was the first of the AT&SF deluxe trains to be all-room without section sleepers. It was the first to get lightweight equipment. It and th El Cap coach train were the first and only 39-1/2 hour Chicago - LA trains, and all others took longer, including the Chief. The Chief did not remain all-Pullman until the end of its operation, but the Super, nominally did so, even thought it was operated in combined consist with the El Cap during the off seasons in later years. Also, in times of heavyest travel, when the El Cap was fully booked, coaches were added to the Super, but this was sort of unnoficial. I often wondered whether they added a second dining car for those few coaches.
BaltACD My perception was that after the entrance of the Super Chief to the ATSF schedules as a daily train, the Chief became the secondary 'maid of all work' feature train.
If ANY Santa Fe named train would have been considered a "secondary maid of all work" I would think it would have been the California Limited. But even that is a stretch. Santa Fe considered all passenger trains with high reguard. I mean even the lowliest named trans-con train #7 "The Fast Mail and Express" got to test the Alco PA's with all the brass on board.
It could also have something to do with what time of day the Chief stopped at certain towns. When NP tried to speed up the schedule of the North Coast Limited, some communities complained that the train would then stop in town at an incovenient hour (i.e. the middle of the night). In response the NP changed the Mainstreeter to the NCL's train no. 1 and 2, and promised to run it on the old (NCL) train 1 and 2 schedule. Then they added the speeded up NCL as I believe train 25-26 at the faster schedule.
BaltACD
Great explanation. I tend to think of the named passenger trains as just that, but obviously photos indicate they were much more than that. Hard to put "Chief" in that category, but someone had to do that work.
Anyone know of any good books that explore the relationship of head end business to the operations and history of passenger trains.
Thumbing thru the OG it is always interesting to come across those "unnamed" trains, usually leaving a major metropolitan area late at night listing "coach" for equipment. Now it makes sense.
Ed
My observation of pictures over the years of the Chief make it appear that the Chief carried a more than fair amount of head end business of mail and express....working mail and express takes station time....some times more than the station stop schedule allowed for. Schedule makers, knowing this, adjusted run times in the schedule to allow more station work time and still have the train arrive 'on the advertised' at the next station. My perception was that after the entrance of the Super Chief to the ATSF schedules as a daily train, the Chief became the secondary 'maid of all work' feature train. Trains like the Grand Canyon performed even more head end work for the carrier. Each train and car in that train that a carrier operated had a business purpose.
As we found out once the Post Office pulled their business of passenger trains...the head end mail & express was the cash cow that kept most of the trains in business.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I went line by line comparing the El Cap to the Chief schedule. Not so many more stops for the Chief. But, what was obvious was the longer station stops (usually 10 minutes at major stops vs 3 minutes for El Cap).
No doubt the sleeper cut in at Kansas City adn cut off at Ash Ford (for Phoenix) was a factor, but still, the Chief simply ran slower. But, there wasnt really a need to arrive much before 830am. If one did want the earlier arrival, then the El Cap was the train.
On an aside (slightly), today's obituary page of the Chicago Tribune has a gentleman named John D. McDonough (1912 - 2011) whose son John is the CEO of the Chicago Black Hawks Hockey team. Mr. McDonough was a maitre d' on the Super Chief - "referred to as the "Train of the Stars" because of the number of celebrities who traveled Chicago - LA.
Wouldnt you like to have heard his stories?Ed
Until the end of its operation, there was an additional charge for riding the Chief, though in the last few years it was called a "service charge," and not an "extra fare." Looking at the issues of the Guide that I have by my desk, it was still an "extra fare" in 1950, but it was changed to "service charge" by 1963.
I would say that some people were content with the slower schedule of the Chief or else did not want to pay the higher extra fare of the Super Chief. Of course, when the Chief became a one-night-out train westbound its schedule had to tightened, though little, if any, change was made eastbound. Regardless, for many years the Santa Fe had decent passenger loadings on both trains.
There's also the difference between having a sleeper and riding coach. The sleepers running from Chicago to St. Louis were not speedsters. Business men could board early in Chicago, go to sleep, sleep well, and the train would always arrive on the specified in St. Louis. Springfield passengers, in the car dropped off at Springfield, were allowed occupancy till a later specified hour.
The passengers on the Chief probably enjoyed and appreciated the later arrival.
Art
The El Cap was extra-fare coach and the Super Chief was extra-fare First Class Pullman. Both made fewer stops than the Chief, which was not extra fare after the Super Chief began operation, Also the Chief handled head-end equpment that required some loading and unloading along the way, but the El Cap and Super did not. And then there was the matter of dropping and picking equpment along the way. The El Cap and Super were the AT&SF's premium trains and always got special handling by the dispatchers. Other trains required make-up time to insure on time arrivals despite delays.
Similarly with the Broadway Limited vs other east-west trains on the PRR. The 20th Century on the NYC. The Southerner and Crescent on the Southern.
Did you read "The Big Train" article in Trains several years ago about the auto parts train on the Rock Island? Similar situations exist in freight operations, even today.
And with Amtrak, Acela versus other trains on the NEC.
I read the Classic Trains article on the Santa Fe joining Amtrak and decided to review the Santa Fe passenger operations of The Chief, Super Chief, and El Capitan.
My 1953 Official Guide lists The Chief as departing Chicago at 130pm with arrival in LA at 830am two days later. The El Capitan departed Chicago at 545pm, arriving in LA at 715am, also two days later. The El Cap made up the 4:15 later start and actually arrived an hour and fifteen minutes earlier.
Does anyone know why this occurred? Both were premium trains and careful review of the two schedules show that while the Chief picked up sleepers from MoPac and Wabash at Kansas City, that wasnt really that much time difference. The El Cap continuously made up time and then passed the Chief at Seligman, Az. It appears the Chief dropped off a sleeper for Phoenix at Ash Fork, which would have added time.
What was the reasoning for the slower schedule for The Chief?
My 1955 OG shows the Chief's departure from Chicago at 9am with arrival in LA at 1030pm, so obviously the schedule was changed, but also the running time was tightened up.
Anyone know of any good books on the Santa Fe passenger operations?As an 11 year old, I did ride The Chief from LaJunta to Kansas City. Very nice.
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