Observation Cars

[Reagan]

Does anyone know when and where the first use of Observation Cars??? 

[wjstix]

I know Pullman was building observation cars by about 1890. I imagine observation cars came along about the same time as enclosed vestibules - 1880's*90's. Before that, every car had an open platform at each end.

[richhotrain]

Are observation cars even used anymore in the U.S. ?

I suppose that Amtrak did away with any observation cars that it might have acquired from the railroads using observation cars at the birth of Amtrak.

Supposedly, some Canadian railroads still use observation cars.

Rich

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

VIA's "Canadian" and "Ocean" may be the last scheduled passenger trains to include observation cars in their consists.

[Deggesty]

Amtrak does not operate any cars that are properly called "observation cars"--you can sit down and look back to where you have been. Some call the Sightseer Lounges "obsevation cars," but they do not fit the definition.

[daveklepper]

Some tourist operators run operation cars, and many private owner cars that are used for special parties are obsrvation cars.

British Rail for a time ran an obervation car on trains between Glascow and the Scottish coast past Lock Lomand .  Do they still do so?

[cefinkjr]

Observation cars were not all they were supposed to be.  I rode one on the Canadien several years ago.  I lasted about half an hour before I gave it up as a bad deal.  Back in the day, cabooses didn't ride as bad (because they weren't moving nearly as fast).  The middle of any car, even a coach, followed by at least one other car, rode much better than an observation.

[riogrande5761]

Amtrak has taken measures over the years to "economize" and cut out passenger cars which aren't directly central to basic services, yes.  Even the private carriers started removing observation cars from their trains in the late 50's and 1960's for similar reasons.  I have read the Great Northern Empire Builder consists tables listed by date and the last approximate 10 years of operation seemed to mostly show standard consists existed without the observation car.

On the other hand. I've seen a fair number of photo's of Amtrak during it's first 10 years of operation where observation cars were still used in a few trains.  In fact I personally saw a California Zephyr style observation car on the San Franciso Zephyr going through Iowa in the 1970's and I've seen photo's of them on Amtrak trains.  I imagine once the Superliner equipment arrived and the newer single level Amfleet passenger cars were added, those superfelous observation cars were largely gone from most, if not all trains.

[Deggesty]

cefinkjr

Observation cars were not all they were supposed to be.  I rode one on the Canadien several years ago.  I lasted about half an hour before I gave it up as a bad deal.  Back in the day, cabooses didn't ride as bad (because they weren't moving nearly as fast).  The middle of any car, even a coach, followed by at least one other car, rode much better than an observation.

In the four trips we have taken between Vancouver and Toronto (two eastbound and two westbound) since 1997, we never noticed any particular roughness as we sat in the rear of the observation car. Perhaps we missed some stretches that are rough because we were in one or another of the domes.

I have had a friend of mine speak of a rough ride in the observation car on the City of New Orleans south of Memphis (the track is not exactly straight as it goes down through Batesville) back in 1963, but that is the only comment I remember about a rough ride in an observation car.

If the track is rough and the train is moving fast, the rear of any car at the rear of the train will give you a rough ride.

[daveklepper]

Can any Brit answer if there is still an observation car between Glasscow and the Scottish west coast past Tyndrum to the port for the Isle of Sky?  

 

I had many wonderful trips in observation cars, and when they were well-maintained and the track in good shape, the ride wasn't at all bad.   Blunt end, round end, regular solarium, and open platform.   Also private varnish.   Road Mountain View on the Broadway and as a private owner car.    Spent lots of time in Silver Sky (or was it Silver Planet, must check Never on Wednesday) on the Rio Grande Zephyr and enjoyed every minute.   Then there was the Silver Meteor obs running north from Jacksonville, with the Brakeman sitting across from me in the other rearmost seat:

I:   "Do you know how fast we are going?"

Brakeman:   "The ICC speed limit is 79 miles per hour, and that is how fast we are going."

"I am clocking the mileposts repeatedly at a mile at 36 seconds."

"The ICC speed limit is 79 miles per hour and that is how fast we are going."

[daveklepper]

Bumping this thread up in the hopes someone can answer my question about the obs still running between Glascow and the Scottish West Coast?

[Deggesty]

Dave, I cannot answer your Scottish question, but I can tell you that "Silver Planet" (along with "Silver Crescent") was a WP car; "Silver Sky" was the D&RGW car.  I, too, have enjoyed the view from "Silver Sky," as well as that from "Silver Bronco, Colt, Mustang, and Pony". Indeed, a part of our trip right after we married was from Denver to Salt Lake City.

[daveklepper]

Silver Planet was used in 1969 when I rode "California Service" the Ogden train that connected with SP.

[Great Western]

Dave,

As you will see from the attached link the two British cars are no longer operational in Scotland.

Both are now in the  South West of England (where I live): one in  Dorset (14) and the other in Devon (13).  I am very familiar with No.13, known as The Devon Belle, as it is operational on the Heritage line on which I volunteer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.dartmouthrailriver.co.uk/

[daveklepper]

Looks like a great preserved railroad.   I have ridden Bluebell, Isle of White, three Welsh narrow gauge, Mt. Snowden, Romney Hieght and Dimchurch, Ravensglass and Ecksdale, and rode behind BR steam in 1962.   Also rode in a Deltic from London to Newcastle just before electrification.   Hope my own economics improve and hope that British politics improve so I can visit again.   Regarding the latter, you have the opportunity of contacting me at [e-mail]

Not getting into politics, I would say that any sensitive and educated USA citizen realizes when visiting the British Isles that, regardless of one's own ethnic background, North American culture is squarely based on that of Great Britian.   I felt at home and hope a change for the better so that can be true again.

 

 

[Great Western]

Forum Members may be interested to know that the Heritage Railway mentioned in my link, two posts prior, is in fact a PLC (LLC? for Stateside readers): in other words it has shareholders and has to stand on its own feet as there are no Lottery handouts or supporters contributions to maintain the Company.   Most Heritage lines rely on unpaid volunteers (I am in a small minority on my line) to operate their systems.  I guess it is similar in the United States.

Trains, once the mainstay of the Company, have now been joined in recent years by buses (usually the double deck type widely seen in the UK) and vessels - some being sea going (up and down short stretches of the English Channel and river boats which ply on the River Dart from the ancient Port of Dartmouth.

This area has great historical connections with the United States being the ports of embarkation for many of The Pilgrims who became the settlers of America.  Mayflower II was built here and has been moored at Plymouth Mass since 1957.  The areas recent history was that of a training ground and departure point for American and Canadian servicemen during the run up and eventual D-Day landings of 1944 with the waters nearby being the scene of 'Operation Tiger' which resulted in the loss of over 700 American servicemen's lives.

 

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

Silver Planet was used in 1969 when I rode "California Service" the Ogden train that connected with SP.

Dave, I just looked in my copy of the April, 1970, issue of the Guide, and the CZ was still running over the WP. October, 1970, is the next issue I have, and the "California Service" was then in effect. If need be, I can look in Trains for that year to get the date that the WP quit all passenger service.

[daveklepper]

I was a year off.  I took California Service in June 1970.   In 1969 I went eastbound on the CZ all the way from Oakland to Chicago.   We were delayed by a rockslide and by a bad-ordered dome-lounge, and got to Chicago a 2AM, with occupancy a third night in the roomette with wake-up at 7AM.  My trip in 1970 was Aurora-Slt0Lk on the Calinfornia Service, UP CofLA to LA, Coast Dalight, parlor to SF, SP to Ogden, cab paid for by D&RGW instead of train, sole occupant, to StLC, California Service to Denver, and DZ after layover to Aurora.  Possibly rode Silver Planet on the regular CZ in 1969, and Silver Planetarium in 1970. 

 

[M636C]

daveklepper

Bumping this thread up in the hopes someone can answer my question about the obs still running between Glascow and the Scottish West Coast?

Dave,

I'm not British, but I am a little confused by your question.

The lines you are talking about from Glasgow separate at Crianlarich, with the southern line going to Oban and the northern line going to Mallaig.

There is also a line from Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh.

Mallaig and Kyle are closest to Skye, from the south and north respectively, with Kyle now being connected by a road bridge to Skye.

Because the Kyle line runs beside Loch Carron for quite a distance, observation cars were used on that line at various times, including the two Pullman cars built for the "Devon Belle" and a former "Coronation" observation modified with larger windows. Later a modified class 101 Metro-Cammell railcar driving trailer was used.  I don't think any of these are still  used on this line since they appear to be listed as preserved elsewhere. 

There are other observation cars which may have been used at various times on the Oban and Mallaig lines but I don't know of any still in use.

I believe steam trains operate to Oban in summer and these might carry an observation.

There is a luxury train, the Royal Scotsman, which may have an observation car but I'm not sure which lines it runs on or if it is still in service.

M636C

[wjstix]

Reagan

Does anyone know when and where the first use of Observation Cars??? 

I haven't found a definite "first" yet. I did find by that c.1902 Pullman was regularly rebuilding earlier wood sleeping cars into Observation cars with one enclosed vestibule and one open observation area at the rear.

FWIW the MDC/Roundhouse "Pullman Palace" observation car (now made by Athearn / Roundhouse) appears to be based on a Pullman car with plan 1434B, built Oct-Nov 1898, and were named in the "Ben" series (Ben Alder, Arthur, Avon, Lomand and Nevis).

http://www.roundhousetrains.com/ProdInfo/RND/450/RND85389-450.jpg

[daveklepper]

The British Rail train that I rode from near the Scottish West Coast in 1962 ran a long the side of Loch Lommond for a while.   I recall stations at Tyndrum?  Ballard?     It was pulled by a Brush 2-2 (0-4-4-0 Whyte classification) diesel.   Can this pinpoint it?

More on the 1969 eastbound very late CZ trip.   There was a rock slide somewhere east of Grand Junction and west of Bond, somewhere around Orestead wye.   The train went into emergency at the red signal.   The antilock feature of the Budd disk brakes did not operate properly on the Cable-car room-dome lounge car, one axle slid, and developed a flat wheel.   I think the car was set off at Bond, resulting in a further delay.   No replacement car was furnished, but coach passengers were then allowed into Silver Planet, which provided lounge and dome service.   I was traveling roomette.  We were allowed to remain on the train overnight in Chicago until 7AM after the 2AM arrival.   We were told this at dinner.   I had zero trouble getting to the office, simply riding a Burlington scoot back from Union Station and explaining to the conductor why I felt I did not need a ticket, just the receipt from the Oakland - Chicago trip.   (I had planned, of course, to get off at Aurora and use a scoot to Downers Grove.)    He said he expected some passengers with this problem and said not to worry.

On the California Service trip in 1970 the Burlington only provided a snack-lounge car for dining service, with counter seating.  The food was OK.   Denver - Salt Lake was just like the subsequent RGZ. with the addition of the two 6-and10's from Chicago.   I was enjoying breakfast in the diner (Silver Restaurant, I realize I should check on all this with "Never on Wednesday"??)  when a well-dressed handsome middle-aged tall gentlement sat across from me and asked:  What in the World are you doing going to Los Angeles via this train?   I explained, and he introduced himself as Tom Long, DRG&W VP Passenger Operations.   We had a nice chat, sat across again at lunch and at dinner. anx in Salt Lake City he insisted on giving me a lift to the UP Station, two blocks from the D&RGW (and former WP) station.   He also invited me to stop in at his office on my return trip, whe\\nre I would be laying over to visit myh sister and her children in Denver.   I did on the return trip, and he then inroduced me to Leonard Bernstein, whom I also visited numerous times on trips to Denver and before or after trips on the RGZ.   Tom Long retired about 1970 or 1971.

The food on the RGZ was unfailingly excellent.   As fine as the Super Chief had been or the 20th Century, Broadway, and Panama Limited in their best days.

[Angela]

I do not know the exact dates of the first observation cars, but I do know that many wooden built cars existed in the 1870's and were commonly used  for "special" runs such as presidential whistle-stops and the like.  There are many photographs in the BNSF Railway collection of such cars.  In the 1890's, more ornate cars were being built, some even commissioned by wealthy millionaires, traveling shows, politicians, and even one well known photographer who turned his car into a rolling photography studio. 

One of our predecessor railways owned the Ben Avon and it was quite fancy with its brass rails, retractable blinds, and shiny coat of paint.

 

 

 

[daveklepper]

After my post earlier, I realize I actually had met Tom Long much earlier, in 1962, on the narrow gauge portion of that year's Mourie Kleibolt Chicago RR Club Colorado trip.  He was the one to whom we each paid $25 for sixi of us to attach the Wiliiam Jackson Palmer Obs-business car for the Durango - Farmington Round Trip, on which Rudy Morgenfrue cooked up a terrific steak dinner with the food he and I purchased in a Farmington super market..   He probably knew who I was, but I had forgotton the earlier meeting at the time.   This was the trip when some of the youngsters asked to fly kites off the obs platform, and they did coming into Durango. 

[erikem]

Angela,

What you are describing are private cars, which were intended for the private use by the owners (or renters for rental cars). Private cars typically had sleeping and kitchen/dining space included. A good book on private cars is "Mansions on Rails" by Lucius Beebe, long out of print but may be available in libraries.

Observation cars were meant for public use by passengers with the appropriate ticket and were configured with lounge space. In the steam days, both observation and private cars had an open observation platform, though streamlined observation cars almost always had an enclosed end.

- Erik

[rcdrye]

Just to close the "end of the original CZ" part of the discussion the last day the CB&Q/D&RGW/WP CZ orginated from each end was March 22, 1970.  It was still listed in the April 1970 OG because the final date was set too late to be included.

[henry6]

An observation car was one which had an extended rear platform with a railing primarily designed to be used at the end of a train and primarily for first class passengers.. Sometimes chairs would be placed on the platform for the passengers.  Later these observation platforms were enclosed for safety and comfort with the classic bullet nose  and the Bud flat backs; although there were some other flat back Pullman cars with half  or full floor to ceiling glass to the back.   An extraordinary observation car had to be the MLW's Hiawatha glass domes.  Most railroads had business cars which were similar, sometimes more sparse, sometimes more extravagant, depending on it use and the officer's rank.  As for private car, yes, most were observation cars if only because it was expected to be tacked to the end of the train.  But especially after the age of elegance, posh and plush,  certainly after the 1950's, rail aficionados more than the rich, often retrieved Pullmans, diners, even coaches, to refurbish and redesign for private car designation whether it had an observation platform or lounge or not.

[daveklepper]

Some railroads, particularly in the North, preferred closed flat-end-with-large-windows cars even in the heavyweight era, such as the Great Northern's "Solerium" cars on the heavyweight Empire Builder.  In the heavyweight era, such cars were known as Solerium cars, usually, not observation cars.  I believe as a youngster I visited one on the C&O on either the George Washington or the Sportsman.  (I was traveling coach, DC - Charlottesville, but the conductor allowed me to inspect the train interior.   Age 11.)

Were there any lightweight rear-open-platform cars constructed that were not rebuilds by private owners?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

There were several railroad-owned lightweight business that were built with rear open platforms.  SP 150 comes to mind and I believe that Union Pacific and Santa Fe also had them.

[rcdrye]

GN  (A28 later A4 ) and Soo (Minneapolis) both had P-S built lightweight business cars.  GN later acquired Soo's (GN A2).  Soo later had an ex-MILW homebuilt after the 1985 MILW merger.

[daveklepper]

But none as part of a streamlined train set of cars?