Nice job Wayne!
.
Good for you, Wayne. I think you may be on to something.
Crandell
Thanks for that lead, Crandell. I googled "Press release for new Texas & Pacific 2-10-4 locos" and came up with this:
Full text of railway and locomotive engineering: a practical journal of railway motive power and rolling stock
You'll need to scroll down past the 4-6-0/2-10-2 discussion, beyond the crown sheet failures and piston and trailing truck innovations to a section entitled
"A New Locomotive for the Texas & Pacific An Interesting Development of the Lima Locomotive Works"
Here's an excerpt from that lengthy discussion, which, based on your expert's suggestions, may be the answer to the original question:
The cylinders and steam chests are lubricated by a four- feed Nathan force feed lubricator and by two of the feeds from a five- feed hydrostatic lubricator' connected to the steam idjK's. The other three feeds from the hydrostatic lubricator take care of the air pump, the feedwater pump and the booster. In addition to these a National Graphite Company pendulum type graphite lubricator is fitted to deliver into the neck of the superheater header where the saturated steam enters. Wayne
I pointed out this topic to a gentleman who used to be on this forum, but who has moved on to other endeavours. He very kindly agreed to look at what was posted so far, and then he continued on his own to do some fact-finding and sourcing. It should be noted that this gentleman, and Australian, is currently a certified steam locomotive engineer, plus he is a boiler maker and inspector/certifier. He has been my go-to guy when I am stumped or just don't know what I am talking about...pretty much amounts for about 90% of the time when it comes to steam.
I paste his response to me via email:
"I've had a look at the thread, and as many photos as I can find. I admit, I have no definite idea what that gadget is. What I will say is that it's none of the things so far suggested. I'd take a guess and say it's a some item of proprietary equipment, in which case there's a couple of possibilities.
Gents--
The device is centered atop the rear edge of the smokebox or superheater cover plate. It is NOT "adjacent" to the bell and is well behind the smokestack. I think it''s location would be most accurately-described as "between" the stack & the bell.
The "blower connection" as suggested by seppburgh2 was a feature of almost all steam locos, & I think such valves were located on the side of the smokebox where they could be more easily reached by workers without having to climb to the top of the loco.
The subject device seems to have been peculiar to the T&P 4-8-2 and 2-10-4 locos when built, as I have not yet noticed it on photos of other locos on other RRs.
seppburgh2 The round tube sticking out from the stake looks to be the connector for a roundhouse steam connection. When a locomotive has gone cold due to servicing or storage, the only way to bring the blower on-line is to connect the boiler to the roundhouse steam line. Thus there is steam available to run the blower to build up the fire in the firebox. The blower creates a draft in the smoke box to draw air through the grates to build up the fire until there was enough pressure to run it at which time the "house steam" is disconnected. See page 23 of the October 1971 issue of Trains for more details (building a fire on CNJ 774.) Hope this helps. The other round shaped item back towards the cab is the stream driven turbo electric generator. Used to power the headlight, marker lamps, guage lights and cab lights. Hope this helps.
The round tube sticking out from the stake looks to be the connector for a roundhouse steam connection. When a locomotive has gone cold due to servicing or storage, the only way to bring the blower on-line is to connect the boiler to the roundhouse steam line. Thus there is steam available to run the blower to build up the fire in the firebox. The blower creates a draft in the smoke box to draw air through the grates to build up the fire until there was enough pressure to run it at which time the "house steam" is disconnected. See page 23 of the October 1971 issue of Trains for more details (building a fire on CNJ 774.)
Hope this helps. The other round shaped item back towards the cab is the stream driven turbo electric generator. Used to power the headlight, marker lamps, guage lights and cab lights. Hope this helps.
Unless I have been under a misapprehension all along, the item we are discussing is immediately aft of the stack, and looks to be adjacent to the bell, or just opposite it on the other side of the boiler's crown.
I think you're right on that one, Glen - I've seen it called a "smoke density light", or something similar. However, the mystery object is behind the stack and just in front of the bell, as seen in the photos on page one.
Wayne
I believe the small device just ahead of the stack is an electric light provided so that the fireman can see what is coming out of the stack in the dark.
Glen
Railroad Glory Days
Yesterday I located my book on the T&P and my file of 2-10-4 builder pix. ALL T&P 2-10-4s had that gadget when built, as did apparently all 10 of the 900s (first five built by ALCO and second order by Baldwin). The devices seem to have been removed at later shoppings (my guess is during the 1930s), based on dates of published photos.
To clarify on the 2-10-4 throttles, the first 10 (600-609) had the Chambers front-end throttle. This is a round vertical cylinder located forward of the smokestack, and was applied to the first group of B&A Berkshires also, among other types of locos so equipped. The multiple-valve throttle was a superior design and became the mosat widely-used on modern steamers. Another feature of the first 10 T&P 2-10-4s is the straight smokestack; locos from 610 on up had the flanged rim, as well as multiple-valve throttles.
Getting back to the unknown device, I seriously doubt that it had an emblem. That would be a very poor location for any such. (T&P's diamond was applied to the front of the Elesco feedwater heaters, or on the smokebox front or below the number plate on some of the smaller passenger locos. I think only the 2-10-4s had the diamond emblem on freight locos.)
I hope the above clarifies the secondary issues of the throttles & I appreciate the efforst of those who are trying to identify this gadget,
I don't know about the throttle suggestion, but if it's any consolation, you're right about the Coffin fwh, as evidenced by the piping arrangement and by the dual check valves on the engineer's side of the loco.
Also, a quick check shows that same device installed on all five orders of the T&P's 2-10-4s, although they appear to have been removed in later years.
What...ever
Thanks for being polite...I will be, too.
FlyingCrow Let me repeat myself...the answer I gave came from a guy who has scratchbuilt, in O, several T&P engines. CHAMBERS FRONT END THROTTLE. update: just ignore this. What was I thinking.... my buddy who scratchbuilds...what would he know?
Let me repeat myself...the answer I gave came from a guy who has scratchbuilt, in O, several T&P engines.
CHAMBERS FRONT END THROTTLE.
update: just ignore this. What was I thinking.... my buddy who scratchbuilds...what would he know?
This loco definitely does not have a Chambers Front End Throttle! It has a multiple valve front end throttle. So, I guess I will politely ignore your answer.
I've been looking at some other T&P steam photos and noticed that many of the 2-10-4s had this thing also whether they had a Chambers throttle or not. At first, I thought it could have something to do with the trailing truck booster but,now I'm thinking it was nothing more than some kind of casting or fabricated metal board with the T&P logo on it. Kind of an unlikely spot but that is the best guess I have right now.
I don't think the device is related to the feedwater heater. Some of the 4-8-2s had Elesco feedwater heaters (crosswise cylinder at top front of smokebox.). Some further study shows the device on the first order of original 2-10-4 locos built for T&P (nos 600-609 "as built"). Those 10 locos also had the Chambers front end throttle, (a short vertical cylinder usually located forward of the smokestack).
Given the location of the device (atop the rear edge of the superheater cover) my guess is it had something to do with the steam system.
clash With it's close proximity to the bell,could it be some sort of automatic bell ringer?
With it's close proximity to the bell,could it be some sort of automatic bell ringer?
I considered that myself. Yet, I couldn't see an actuator on the harp or mounted on the bell. No discernible linkage between the two. It could even be an alternate whistle for all I know.
Jim. at 200% expansion, about the limit for resolution of any useful kind for my monitor and this photo, I see in your first photo the thin support or pedestal, perhaps it's a pipe, plus another curving off the 'blob' seemingly toward the stack. At right angles to the support pipe, parallel to the cladding, and apparently pointing aft, is a 'stick' maybe 8" long.
How's that for technical know-how?
The device seems to have a wire or a fine tube leading out of it apart from the thin pedestal on which it is supported off the boiler cladding.
A close look will reveal a pipe and shut off valve going to the thingy-wingy.
FlyingCrow It's a CHAMBERS FRONT END THROTTLE body. It goes there because of the Coffin Feedwater Heater found on the T&P Class M-2 Mountains.
It's a CHAMBERS FRONT END THROTTLE body.
It goes there because of the Coffin Feedwater Heater found on the T&P Class M-2 Mountains.
I have no idea, but I note that the second of the two photos above shows no feedwater heater. The device seems to have a wire or a fine tube leading out of it apart from the thin pedestal on which it is supported off the boiler cladding.
Is puzzlement.
My thanx to Big Jim & CZ for photos & comments. The device is definitely part of the locomotive & NOT something in the background. I think it does appear in the builder photos, though. Also it is possible that not all the engines were so equipped when built & based on published photos (PFM book "The Mountains") the device may well have been removed at a later shopping/overhaul. The PFM book has a good photo of the 908 with the device installed, but other T&P photos in the book do not show that gadget. Be interesting to find out what it is--we need a real steam loco expert to identify it, I suppose.
It is well-known to steam buffs that locos changed appearance over the years as appliances were added or removed; pipes re-routed, etc. One noticeable example was the use of an outside dry pipe on the left side of the boiler from the superheater to a turret just ahead of the cab. This was applied to several of the early 2-8-4 and 2-10-4 locos primarily, but was also found on earlier SP 4-8-2 and 4-10-2 locos. But later locos of the same types on the same RRs either did not have such a pipe or had it inside the boiler. The time frame when locos were built with the outside dry pipe appears to be from ca 1922 to the late 20s but not much if any after about 1930. (Maybe use of superheated steam for certain appliances was found to be unnecessary and/or wasteful.)
These engines show up in later pictures without that device. Interesting!!
They also received disc main drivers in the late forties after the rebuild and upgrading.
CZ
Feltonhill passed these along:
Thing-a-ma-bob is still not very clear. I have no idea what it could be.
BigJim wjstix: A pic always helps, can you see it in this picture, From that picture, it looks like it is not a part of the engine at all, but, maybe a pole in the background.
wjstix: A pic always helps, can you see it in this picture,
A pic always helps, can you see it in this picture,
From that picture, it looks like it is not a part of the engine at all, but, maybe a pole in the background.
I checked some other books and pictures and it is part of the locomotive. The early pictures in the 1930 era show the device on both the T&P Mountain class and Texas type. Late forties pictures show it was removed on both the Moutain and Texas locomotives. Someone from a T&P historical society might shed some light on this device.
wjstix A pic always helps, can you see it in this picture,
I believe the whistle is located on the left side of the steam dome. It is visible pasted on the side of the cover in the first photo. As for the other item, I see it, but I can't see enough of it to make out what it is.
It could be the whistle.
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