I remember reading somewhere that the Portuguese coaches were the originals from what became a line of DIY rolling stock. The cars were sold as kits with some pre-assembled pieces.
Photos of the Portuguese coaches being assembled in a dedicated shed inside the CP main shops in Barreiro:
The interior of a 2nd class day coach (probably in the 40s):):
Regards
rp
The Prospector was introduced in November 1941 and withdrawn from service in July 1942.
The engines were not sufficiently powerful so the train was returned to Budd. It is worth pointing out that these two trains were diesel electric, not diesel hydraulic like the later RDCs.
Since power was critical, because of the mountainous route, these trains would have been built as lightly as possible and did apparently use the same structural design as used on the Portuguese cars built the previous year. So far those Portuguese cars appear to be the first use of that design.
M636C
Hi,
And what about the original Rio Grande Prospector DMU?
what do you think?
I think we are getting close...
Thew BMT experimental articulated "Little Zephyr" undnoubtadly used the same construction as the Pioneer Zephyr and Flying Yankee. There are photos of this little train, possilby accessable via www.LRTA.org and then links to club sights and Dave's photos, rapid transit, etc.
What Racia appears to be concerned about is the presence or absence of a flat stainless steel letterboard above the windows. This is absent on both the Portugeuese cars and the Pioneer Zephyr.
On the Portuguese cars and the Pioneer Zephyr, there is no additional cantrail (a horizontal frame member at the join of the roof and side panels). This lack of cantrail and the extension of the narrow corrugations down to the window line gives a distinctive appearance to the car. The Pioneer III shares this feature too.
This design was used on Burlington 9900 to 9903 and the "Flying Yankee" but 9904 onward had flat stainless steel letterboards. The 1937 Super Chief had a corrugated letterboard but with a cantrail between that panel and the roof. Post War AT&SF Budd "10&6" "Pine Beach had no letterboard and no cantrail. Both these cars had the name "Santa Fe" on a stainless steel plate mounted where a letterboard would be.
Racia has asked about the "California Zephyr". It had no letterboard or cantrail. Neither did many cars supplied by Budd to the Burlington for their own trains. Strangely, Railway Post Office "Silver Pouch" had a letterboard from the post office end to the sliding baggage door but not from there to the endof the car. The dining car "Silver Tureen" had a full length letterboard.
New York Central Budd cars generally lacked both letterboard and cantrail, but sleeping car "Tarreytown Harbor" had a cantrail but no letterboard.
Despite all this, my comments about structure still apply. The first USA cars with narrow corrugations on the lower side (like the Portugeuse cars) were the "Keystone" cars mentioned by Daveklepper. The Pioneer Zephyr and most of the other cars discussed here had structural ribs with decorative fluting not used on the Portugeuse cars which form a significant structural difference.
The Cal Zephyr cars were like other standard postwar Budd equipment in basic construction. But you are correct aboiut the articulated early Budd streamliners, including the B&M Flying Yankee as well as the articulated Zephyrs. The transition came with the first non-articulated Budd cars built for the AT&SF and RI. Another early Budd articulated low car type was the multisection articulated "Little Zephyr" built for the BMT subway system in 1935, scrapped about 25 years later after spending most of its life on the Franklin Avenue shuttle. Then there was the PRR Keystone, about the time the BMT's Little Zephyr was scrapped.
I really don’t know if in the 30s, railway cars had to respond to any sort of normalization being it in terms of strength or anything else. FRA was founded in 36, but I can admit that, since UIC (International Union of Railways) was founded in Paris in 1922 and CP was a member from the beginning, there is some chance that the cars had to be compliant with the regulations emanated by that entity. Another fact supporting this is that the cars were accepted and used in international services (to Spain).
I checked the Pioneer III and they seem very different from these Budds.
But if you look carefully at the CB&QR Pioneer Zephyr you will find out a very similar type of construction. I wonder if the Portuguese Budds are not related with those cars. Or maybe with the original equipment used on the California Zephyr, who knows? The quest continues…
These cars are structurally different from contemporary USA Budd passenger cars. All of these had distinctive "clip in" fluting below the window line which sat in structural ribs attached to the framing.
The Portuguese cars had corrugated sheeting under the window line, similar to that on the roof and on the roof of the USA cars. This would have made the car lighter at the expense of some structural strength.
This was the case on most European Budd cars including those built under licence by Carel Fouche in France.
These cars were very similar in structure to the post World War II "Pioneer III" prototype which shared the cross section and lower roof. A number of electric multiple unit cars to this design operated around Philadelphia.
The AAR had high end loading requirements for passenger cars which were significantly higher than those in Europe but they reflected the relative weights of trains. In particular the much smaller and lighter freight trains in Europe posed a lesser collision impact risk.
I have to wonder if, at the time these cars were built, the US had structural requirements for railroad cars. (The sort of things I'm thinking of, are steel underframes, anti-climbers, how much force the carbody had to be able to resist before crushing, etc.). The next question is, did Portugal have any such regulations, and if these cars, conformed to either US or Portuguese standards, and whose were higher.
I understand Budd was still selling cars of this type in the export market in the 1980s. It was my understanding that these cars could not be used in the US due to safety regulations.
Dan
The cars were of lightweight construction. With an overall length of ±24 m, a height of ±3.5 m and a weight of less than 30 T, they were shorter, lower and lighter than the usual European cars.
That’s why I think those cars derive from the lightweight trains budd produced during the 30s especially the equipment used on the Rock Island Rockets, but I’m not sure and I haven’t seen any evidence of that.
When new, they were used on the fastest and more prestigious trains in the country, the twice daily “Flecha de Prata” (Silver Arrows) between Lisboa (Lisbon) and Porto (Oporto) and even on the Sud-Express and Iberia Express to/from Paris.
In the 60s, with the introduction of new rolling stock allowing faster schedules, they were moved to the south region where they stay until their retirement in the 90s. While on the south region, they were common on the fastest Lisboa – Algarve trains first, and then on the InterRegio and Regional trains. During their life they were submitted to several technical and interiorism updates.
Today, a small rake of cars including a restaurant, belong to the National Railroad Museum at Entroncamento.
Technical file of a 1st class car.
In the 40s, the “Flecha de Prata” near Lisboa.
In 1963, the Sud Express prepares to leave Ciudad Rodrigo, Spain with a budd behind the classical silhouette of a CIWL (Wagons-Lits) luggage car.
In the 80s, leaving Faro to Lisboa, an InterRegional with another American classic: Alco RSC 2, CP class 1500 nr. 1511. Marshaled behind the loco is one of the Budds. Check the difference in height to the following car.
A renewed Budd waits its next service. Check the UIC standard “bourrelet” instead of the traditional diaphragms, recessed tail lights, new windows, etc. Also the change from vacuum to air brakes allowed the maximum speed to be increased from 120 to 140km/h.
Unlike the more or less standard Budd coaches, as first bought by the Sante Fe, then by several other railroads beforre WWII, the cars lack a real letterboard, thus lowering the roof. Making up for lack of strength of the side of the car as considered a girder, part of the overal "tube" rigidity, there is more steel between the windows and less glas along the window line. The apparent somewhat narrowness of the cars in not completely accounted by the somewhat wider track gauge. So the cars are narrower, lower, and have an altogether different window and door arangement than any of the Budd pre-WWII USA coaches. The other differences are of course the buffers and couplers.
I think these cars were still in service when I rode the line around 1979!
About the only US passenger cars I can think of with a center-entrance are commuter cars, like the Bi-levels used in Chicagoland. Otherwise, they seem to not be all that different from Budd streamlined stainless steel cars.
Dear All,
Back in the 30s, to be more precise in September 6, 1939, CP (Portuguese Railways) formalized with Budd the supply of a small group of 28 coaches in several layouts (1st and 2nd class compartments, open 3rd class, 2nd class and restaurant and 3rd class and fourgon). A small quantity was shipped across the Atlantic in ready to run form, but the largest number were received in kit and subsequently assembled locally by CP own shops at Barreiro. In typical Budd practice, the coaches were of all welded stainless steel construction, and were in fact, the precursors of a long lineage of inox rolling stock in Portugal, that culminated with the local construction of an inox series of electric locomotives in 1963 (a world’s first). Sorefame, a local company, continued to build inox Coaches, DMUs and EMUs well into the 90s. Back to the original Budds, the first turn of wheels was in May 8, 1940 (8 months after signature of the contract, fantastic!) when the first set was introduced in the fastest trains between Lisboa and Porto, Portugal’s main cities. After that small introduction my question is: I believe the coaches followed what was a Budd standard design.
Does anyone know if anything similar ever rode in North American rails? Do you know of similar coaches anywhere? Do they exist in model form, especially HO?
Thanks and happy 2011 to all of you
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