Starting a cold oil burning steam engine

[selector]

Can you imagine the reaction to the T-shirt with these words in large letters?

I'm a steam locomotive engineer.
If you see me running, try to keep up.

[Gunns]

Some info:
our page...http://www.nmrhs.org/

page for 3751 an opperating 4-8-4 in California and our sorta mentors.
http://www.sbrhs.org/

a comparison of 4-8-4s currently in opperation or in restoration
http://www.sbrhs.org/484com.html

we are currently working on the restoration at a temporary site, pending the compleation / aquisition of a permanent home <we are supposed to get 3 stalls in the old Barellas shops in Albuqurque but we can't "do" arestoration in the midst of another restoration..... >

Once our home is ready we hope to have a stationary boiler for house steam. Also on the wish list is a stall for visiting locomotives, over head crane, wheel drop pit, car restoration stall and a large shop tool area......

But for now we are just plugging along with what we have.
Asking the Guys at the 3751 is a good Idea though, they light off in a lot of diffrent places.

Gunns

[Anonymous]

Having done this ... I think house steam is the best way to go. The alternative I've seen used (and have been involved with) is a diesel-fueled torch which uses compressed air to draw the fuel (ala Venturi) through a hose and to create a fuel-air mixture in the firebox. The device is called a "skunk" in view of its tail-like plume of flame.

Takes constant monitoring for fear the flame will go out, but the air-fuel mixture will continue increase in the boiler with potentially-explosive consequences.

Also, it takes many hours to build steam pressure through this method, and differential heating of the boiler is an issue.

[Gunns]

I think the problem would be the amount of heat requierd, you get more heat from the oil so time would be the real consideration, we need 75 psi to start the burner and maintain the draft.... still we have sevrale years yet, time to consider.....
Gunns

[selector]

Instead of a small boiler, and all of the apparatus to get it working for the loco, could you not just use a large propane 'tiger' torch inserted into an orifice on the backhead? You'd have heat directly in the firebox, and nothing more than the same propane and one 20' hose to horse around.

Just a thought.

[Gunns]

I am involved with the restoration of AT&SF2926 in New Mexico, and while we are still years away from our first steam up, we have considerd the problem. the best fix we can see is getting a small stationary propane burning boiler and using it like "House" steam... opinion is divided as to whether we should mount it in the tool car or not and as we are at least 2 years away from a re certified boiler not real urgent. At least the 2926 was desinged "from the ground up" as an oil burner, and has a steam injection port for house steam.
Gunns

[Wdlgln005]

On your local PBS station, look for a new program called Restoration. Ran for an hour on NPT Friday nite.

First program started with a Maine 2ft RR. Rebuilt roadbed, by hand & start a coal-fired steamer. THe fire started withy bits of kindling, like a campfire, then add larger bits & coal. Get it running in 2hrs or so. Guess a lot depends on the size of the boiler.

[Anonymous]

bump

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Michaell

The case tractor the blew up in Medina, Ohio was about a mile from my house and we heard it. We also knew some of the people the lost there lives in this accident.

As soon as I heard what happened I knew that he had let the water get low and uncovered the crown sheet. The biggest problem I see with operating steam engines today is we have lost are fear of them When they where active daily everone knew how dangerous they where and for the most part where more careful. My father fired for both the PRR and the UP and he had a healthy respect for what these engines could do.

I learn something this week at the Steam Fest in Dennison Ohio. The government is going to require two water gauges. One for the fire man and one for the engineer.

As for learning I was the one that started this thread and I not only got an answer I learn a lot more. That's what makes the forum so good. THANKS![:)]

I think you hit the nail on the head so to speak -- people have lost the fear of steam -- maybe some younger ones have never been afraid of it -so have not formed a respect for the sheer power stored up in a loco boiler -- I was brought up in the age of steam in England - so was used to a loco blowing off at the station , watching the fireman shoveling coal, running his injectors - or standing back as the train pulled out with the cylinder cocks open .Raw power but under control by experienced men who had a healthy respect for it.> . In the UK we did have 2 water gauges on most loco's as far a I can remember . I do think however we should preserve steam for future generations but have the knowlege of it as well - Thats why I volunteer & will listen to anything a steam man can tell me.

[Anonymous]

The case tractor the blew up in Medina, Ohio was about a mile from my house and we heard it. We also knew some of the people the lost there lives in this accident.

As soon as I heard what happened I knew that he had let the water get low and uncovered the crown sheet. The biggest problem I see with operating steam engines today is we have lost are fear of them When they where active daily everone knew how dangerous they where and for the most part where more careful. My father fired for both the PRR and the UP and he had a healthy respect for what these engines could do.

I learn something this week at the Steam Fest in Dennison Ohio. The government is going to require two water gauges. One for the fire man and one for the engineer.

As for learning I was the one that started this thread and I not only got an answer I learn a lot more. That's what makes the forum so good. THANKS![:)]

[Anonymous]

Dear Readers,


It is with interest that I was reading the report of a Locomotive Boiler Explosion at Canadian, Texas in 1951.

http://www.disastercity.com/explosions/boiler/atsfrrtex/


At first glance it appears the Locomotive Watchman was remiss in his duties and allowed the Safeties to lift exposing the Crown Sheet.


Nothing is said about the Watchman himself.

How Old was he? How was his health? Did he have any disabilities?

Was there an Autopsy to determine the cause of Death?

Could he have had a Stroke or Heart Attack?


The Employer would FROWN on Lifted Safeties INSIDE the Roundhouse at 195 PSI.

If the Safeties did indeed Blow for Five or so Minutes while the Water went down out of the Glass, the Watchman would have come a running.

He could have gone across to the Cafe and not heard them. OR;

He may have not been feeling well with Pain in Chest or Head. Gone to Washroom to Rest in Stall for a moment, as genuinely sick and disoriented.

He then heard Pop open, rushed to Engine, collapsed where found, as the Engine Roared on at Full Blower.

Nothing is said about the Engine in the next Track, also under Steam.

Its 1951 on the Santa Fe. The Ivory Hunters from La Grange and Schenectady are on the Horizon.

Doesn't really matter now anyway, or does it?

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MontrealLocomotiveWorks




Dear readers,


Have been following your discussion on Steam.


The included information is a warning. Images are quite haunting.


Most Standard Gauge Steam Locomotives are quite a bit larger than this Case Traction Engine.


http://www.doli.state.mn.us/boilerohio.html

moral of the incident - don't try to fix your own boiler on the cheap !!!

[Anonymous]

Dear readers,


Have been following your discussion on Steam.


The included information is a warning. Images are quite haunting.


Most Standard Gauge Steam Locomotives are quite a bit larger than this Case Traction Engine.


http://www.doli.state.mn.us/boilerohio.html

[Overmod]

Great wisdom here. A few additional thoughts:

In Europe, locomotive 8055 uses extremely good boiler insulation, combined with a small (about 24kW) electric heater. This is sufficient to keep full working pressure on the engine when it is idle for several days with the fire out; this also keeps all the pressure parts of the boiler at "full" operating temperature which reduces thermal cycling. This engine is fired with light oil, but even heavy oil could be kept hot with circulating steam at slight additional encapsulated-heater power (and heat tape could be applied to supply lines, etc.)

The NYC and, I believe, some other roads had the practice of keeping a 'house boiler' with a substantial amount of water at working pressure. By pressurizing a locomotive boiler with air, CO2 or nitrogen, it would be possible to pump this water to fill a boiler without its flashing to steam during the transfer. It would not be difficult to use special fittings, multiple ports, etc. to fill a boiler very quickly, or to use several sequential fills at successively higher temperatures to bring a cold boiler up to working temperature safely with minimum strain.

Babcock & Wilcox, and probably others, describe oil burners that combine steam and air atomization; theoretically a device like this could use either shop air or house steam to start combustion at an appropriate level (with appropriate volume of secondary & tertiary air to control the gas temperatures) to heat the boiler with maximum speed, and then 'switch over' to regular firing operation. It might also be possible to preheat some boilers 'in reverse' by putting a large fan or duct on the smokebox door and blowing backward toward the ashpan; this would give much larger air volume than would be possible with torpedo blowers through the firedoor, vent fans on the stack, etc. Once the boiler's structures were up to temperature (or at an appropriate level of dimension, strain, or pressure) it would be a simple operation to close and dog the smokebox door, unport the stack, fire up the stack vent or blower to establish combustion airflow, and light off the first steps of burner start...

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cdnlococo




Dear Sir,


I understand CP 2860 was Damaged by the Crew eyeballing the Clouds whilst Filling Boiler with Feedwater Pump.

I understand CP 3716 was Injured by Ovefiring on the Big Hill out of Lilloet with Thin Side Sheets in Firebox.


The Museum at Squamish should have many books on Steam. The Blue ICS Books are invaluable. Most Steam Guys had them when Writing Up in the Forties.. Check with their Archivist.


I understand that Medium-Size CPR A Unit Beaver Crest on Display came from CP C-Line 4055 or CP 4078.


GLAD to see CP 6503 S3 now Running!!! The Beat of a 539 CANNOT be surpased, Turbo or not. Just Lovely!!

Yes 2860 does need some attention , The feedwater pump , some gauges & booster pipes had to go back to 2850 - they were only on loan .So some replacements for these items have been obtained or need to be. 2860 is not a terminal case she can be returned to steam - It was inspected some months ago by Doyle Mcormick of 4449 fame and recieved a favourable report. Tubes etc and firebox brickwork are also needed. As regards 3716 she is up at the Kettle Valley being attended to - although at what stage I'm not sure . Also 6503 is alive and well & running around -- now the cosmetics start - body work & painting are now the order of the day - yes she sounds great and has pulled a consist of 3 cars, #561 and a Budd car on site -- and she has power!!

[Anonymous]

Dear Sir,


I understand CP 2860 was Damaged by the Crew eyeballing the Clouds whilst Filling Boiler with Feedwater Pump.

I understand CP 3716 was Injured by Ovefiring on the Big Hill out of Lilloet with Thin Side Sheets in Firebox.


The Museum at Squamish should have many books on Steam. The Blue ICS Books are invaluable. Most Steam Guys had them when Writing Up in the Forties.. Check with their Archivist.


I understand that Medium-Size CPR A Unit Beaver Crest on Display came from CP C-Line 4055 or CP 4078.


GLAD to see CP 6503 S3 now Running!!! The Beat of a 539 CANNOT be surpased, Turbo or not. Just Lovely!!

[athelney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cdnlococo




Dear Sirs,


A Steam Ticket is like a Driver's Licence. Its only as good as the Man/Woman holding it.

We WON'T get into Drivers or their Habits.

An Auto Stopped at the Curb with the Engine Running is reasonably safe.

A Steam Locomotive Standing at the Shop, or in Front of the Station Under Steam with the Fire Lit can Maim or Kill at any time!

The Ticket gives the Employee Authorization to Operate the Locomotive. It does NOT control HOW he Operates it. Just like Driving a Car.

Low Water on an Auto seizes the Engine.

Low Water on a Locomotive. Hmmmm.

Firebox Explosions on Oil are a CONSTANT Threat.

On a Low Fire to Prevent Safeties from Popping, a Gust of Wind can Put the Fire Out for a moment.

NEVER happens until you are off the Engine for a Drink of Water or to the Washroom and the Fireman goes to Chat Up a Beauty just for a Sec. BOOOOOOM!

The Smoke gives it away, and one wonders if he should run TOO or FROM the Engine when seen.


Reading, AND UNDERSTANDING the Following Link should be Mandatory to all Steam Locomotive Engineers, regardless of Age or Gender.

http://www.disastercity.com/explosions/boiler/atsfrrtex/


Being an ENGINEER is more than an opportunity to Show Off and get a Tan. The Locomotive is Not a "Chick Magnet".

It is NOT the place for Pensioners to Gab about 'The Old Days and how great they were when Young.' Polishing the Pilot Beam with their Elbows while Double Dipping on their Pensions.

Steam Burnt Skin REALLY HURTS, is Ugly. Leaves Scars!

Thanks for the link to the boiler explosion -- a good read and a stern warning to anyone working with steam -- keep check of the boiler level!! -- as a side point do you know of books or publications on the subject of oil firing? -- as a volunteer involved in the restoration of # 2860. I wanted to read up on the subject .

[Anonymous]

Dear Sirs,


A Steam Ticket is like a Driver's Licence. Its only as good as the Man/Woman holding it.

We WON'T get into Drivers or their Habits.

An Auto Stopped at the Curb with the Engine Running is reasonably safe.

A Steam Locomotive Standing at the Shop, or in Front of the Station Under Steam with the Fire Lit can Maim or Kill at any time!

The Ticket gives the Employee Authorization to Operate the Locomotive. It does NOT control HOW he Operates it. Just like Driving a Car.

Low Water on an Auto seizes the Engine.

Low Water on a Locomotive. Hmmmm.

Firebox Explosions on Oil are a CONSTANT Threat.

On a Low Fire to Prevent Safeties from Popping, a Gust of Wind can Put the Fire Out for a moment.

NEVER happens until you are off the Engine for a Drink of Water or to the Washroom and the Fireman goes to Chat Up a Beauty just for a Sec. BOOOOOOM!

The Smoke gives it away, and one wonders if he should run TOO or FROM the Engine when seen.


Reading, AND UNDERSTANDING the Following Link should be Mandatory to all Steam Locomotive Engineers, regardless of Age or Gender.

http://www.disastercity.com/explosions/boiler/atsfrrtex/


Being an ENGINEER is more than an opportunity to Show Off and get a Tan. The Locomotive is Not a "Chick Magnet".

It is NOT the place for Pensioners to Gab about 'The Old Days and how great they were when Young.' Polishing the Pilot Beam with their Elbows while Double Dipping on their Pensions.

Steam Burnt Skin REALLY HURTS, is Ugly. Leaves Scars!

[Anonymous]

Dear Sir,

A lot would depend on the Size of the Engines, how long they have been Fireless and the Steam Pressure upon Lighting.


A Firebox that is cool enought to be entered to examine Bricks , Burner Carbon Buildup or Remove Sand /Debris should be Heated Gently regardless.


Overfiring when Cool is a Major No No.

[ben13]

I live near a tourist railway that runs oil burning steam locos. Each morning they just throw in a lit oil soated rag and start the flow of oil. Once the steam has actumylated the atomizer will fire up and you can get a roaring fire in about 15 minutes.

[Anonymous]

Dear Sirs,


I did NOT think of draining Down the Warm Water to Warm Side Sheets behind the Bricks, but good Idea!!!


As we have a BIG Stationary Boiler, I DID suggest Lifting Water from Tender using House Steam on Locomotive Injector as it would warm Water on Stone Cold Boiler after Wash Out.


Previously we tried moving Hot Water from Stationary Boiler to Locomotive thru 1 Inch Pipe. Pathetic!!


Then Filled Locomotive Boiler with Cold Water with Fire Hose and Applied Live Steam to Blow Down to warm Water , also very Pathetic, and SLOW.


One year we Fired Locomotive on Wood to Raise Steam before Firing On Oil., Draft from Big Air Compressor. Doubt Wood Fire did Bricks any good, tho', but worked.


Tried Firing on Oil using Compressed Air instead of Steam on Blower and Atomizer/Burner. Works! Flame is Different, and the worry of Condensate coming thru Burner from Steam and putting Fire Out when everything cool is lessened. We were Burning Diesel and Oil Temp not a problem.


Disconnected, then Removed Tender Bunker Oil Heater when New Tank Applied. Disconnected Steam Supply to Oil Line Heater on Oil Supply Pipe Beneath Cab to prevent accidental Heating of Diesel.


Diesel is Fine, but has to be watched carefully, as very Volatile. If it goes Out and you are NOT RIGHT ON IT, a Fire Box Explosion WILL result if Reignites on own!!!! Scary, Scary, Scary!!!!!!!!! Watching Unlit Diesel creeping towards Red Bricks is Heart Stopping viewing thru Sand Hole in Firebox Door. Stand in Gangway, if Time.


We had a VIOLENT Firebox Explosion that Burned Off all Exposed Hair of Engine Crew and Blew Out Asbestos Rope Packing for Draft between Firebox Brick Pan and Mud Ring. Blew Out Packing between Smoke Box Front and Smoke Box Proper .


On the Road if Fire Goes Out. Shut Throttle, Draft Lessens, BIG BANG, open her up, and Carry on. Tourists Love it, Engine Crew does NOT!!!


Another Senario is the Fire Goes Out. The Ego People keep right on Talking about themselves, or getting a Tan. Oil flows out of Bottom Of Firebox onto Ties.


Finally someone notices the Burner Sounds Different as Fire Out and Smoke White.


Throws in Lit Rag. BIG DRUMMING OIL FIRE in Firebox, lots of Smoke, Blower On Full to Clear.


Oil on Ground ignites and Fire Envelopes Engine. Just Lovely!!!!


With Self Important Asses around, Steam is very Dangerous.

[Anonymous]

I hadn't thought about draining cool water through the blowdowns. Excellent idea!

[route_rock]

And some people say there are no more knowledgeable steam guys left! (even us pups know a little right[(-D][:-,]

[Anonymous]

Dear Sirs,


At least 8 Hours form a Cold Start on Oil. If House Steam, use Engine Injector thru Steam Hose to Turret with Stop Valve Turret/Boiler CLOSED to Fill Boiler with Water from Tender, as Injector will Warm Water. OVERFILL Boiler at First!!! as no Pressure.


Then use House Steam On Blower and Burner Firing VERY LOW.


If NO House Steam, use Big Air Compressor to Operate Blower and Burner IF Oil Thin enough to Lite and Burn.


As Water Warms, Drain Down Water thru Blowdown to Warm Water in Firebox Legs hiding behind Firebox Bricks on Oil Burner as definite Temperature demarcation felt by Hand on Firebox Exterior as Flame only heats above Bricks at first, as they are Cold, too.


Fire Slow until at least 100 PSI, depends on Engine, of Course. A Big 4-8-8-4 is something else I would suspect. Doubt Short Line would be Firing an Engine This Large, tho'.

[Anonymous]

Nope, you can't bank an oil fire, but if the boiler stays hot enough to produce 10 or more pounds of steam pressure, you can get back up to operating pressure in a lot less than 8 hours. But a true cold start (boiler metal at say, 70 degrees, and feedwater cooler than that) will take a good 8 hours.

Most of the time is spent getting the pressure up to about 10 pounds, using the torpedo heater (or "skunk" as they are sometimes nicknamed) and box fan.

Once you have 10 pounds of steam pressure in the boiler, you can heat the fuel oil in the tender, warm up the line heater, get a sufficient draft with the blower and atomize the oil. When the loco's own burner is successfully lit off, you can produce a tremendous amount of heat. In fact, you have to be very careful not to overstress the biler by raising pressure too quickly, and have to beware the possibility of burning off heads of staybolts inside the firebox!

To conserve heat in the boiler once the oil fire is shut off, the fireman will shut the dampers and will cap the stack. You don't want cold air flowing through the flues, even in the shutdown is for a short period. A buttoned-down boiler should retain 15-20 pounds of pressure after an overnight shutdown in warm (say 60 degree) weather.

[route_rock]

8 hours for a oil burner !Wow I would have to be up at midnight and make the two hour drive to the line I work at just to have it ready an hour before train time[:O]!Glad mine is a coal fired engine.give me about 30 lbs steam and I can give you the blower working and producing draft.I would have to agree with house steam and maybe even a loco that cant be run(lets say too old or too worn)being used to help.Or just haveing an engine watcher keep enough steam on it to get it ready in a hurry.Give me coal though please [:D]I dont like to get up that early.Plus how does one horseshoe bank oil anyways[;)][%-)][(-D][(-D][:-^]

[Anonymous]

It isn't just a matter of getting the oil to flow. You also need to atomize the oil in the firebox (thereby creating an oil-fuel mixture that will produce a lot of heat). And what is used to atomize the fuel in an oil-burning loco? You guessed it--steam. In addition, while the engine is at rest, an artificial draft needs to be induced in order to draw the exhaust gasses through the flues (in part to heat the boiler, in part to prevent an explosion in the firebox). What provides the artificial draft? Steam once again, in the form of a blower located in the smokebox.

House steam is definitely the best means of keeping a boiler hot when an oil-burning fire isn't going in the firebox. I would think it would have been an economical means, even for a short line.

I say all of this having cold-started oil burners on several occasions. And I can't improve on the article you guys found on the internet--it's a classic.

--John

[Anonymous]

That's what I thought, but the oil that was used was called buncker C and it will not flow below about 150 degrees, so before you can you can do anything you have to ge the oil heated and this was done by running steam pipes through the tenders take. Like the chicken and the egg, you need steam to heat the oil and you need to burn the oil to get the steam.

Thanks for the reply![:)]

[Anonymous]

Hi,

All of my on the road experiance is from Coal fired locos...

But oil fired should not be that hard to steam up.. of from what I have heard, Just toss lit rag in, and turn on the oil, and atomizer.

Sorry I can't be of that much help.