True enough, but the term harkens back to a female dog who may be protective and vicious, which some men tend to use as a substitute for the influential women around them. Whether they are misogynists or not, the term is therefore derogatory, and 'bitching' means acting like a female...who tend to be vocal and complain more than men do.
Just because a term is widely used, and we all know which one is peppered freely in the current language of our youth, doesn't make it right to do.
Then again, by exposing ourselves to things often enough, they become innocuous and in some cases lose their most damaging characteristics. I guess that's not so bad.
Crandell
Keep in mind there was only one "swear word" ("***") used, which is generally considered to be a mild one and is allowed on TV and Radio every day. The other issue was a misunderstanding of the use of a slang term ("bitching") which in this context means "complaining".
Concerning profanity in the magazine, or anywhere else for that matter: When I was 27 I would have said "what's the big deal? Everybody talks like that!" Well now I'm 57 and it's amazing what 30 years of living teach you. Eveybody DOESN'T talk like that and even if many of us do (I'm no innocent as far as that's concerned) there's still a time and a place for everything. Just remember, the printed page is a projectile you're firing into the future with your name on it. What do you want someone to think about you 40, 50, or 100 years from now?
All well and good that some of you are offended and it's not for me or anyone else to question your values in this format. HOWEVER, you do not speak or think for me which is what this kind of proposed censorship comes down to. The language was not gratuitous and entirely appropriate to the context of the story. If this is an egregious breach of good taste for you then vote with your wallet...but do not assume that you are going to select for all of us.
The vocabulary I hear from the grade schoolers walking home from the local bus stop is far beyond anything that is being objected to on this forum. Parents may have the fantasy world of the 40's in their minds as the acceptable level....the kids exist and function in the 21st Century reality. The 'Father Knows Best' world of the 50's didn't exist in reality then and certainly doesn't exist in the 21st Century.
Convicted One BaltACD: Much ado about very little. It would be interesting indeed to see if some parent felt similarly if their child added that word to their vocabulary after reading the magazine in question.
BaltACD: Much ado about very little.
Much ado about very little.
It would be interesting indeed to see if some parent felt similarly if their child added that word to their vocabulary after reading the magazine in question.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think if the word in question had to be struck, there would be other expressions that wouldn't cut the mustard, either. We must be as careful to avoid slippery-slope censorship in either too liberal or too conservative a direction.
The term is quite common, and there are far worse. We can have an attempt at working-man's realism, or we can impose the artificiality of 1940s Hollywood and its circumlocutions. But to say that the word degrades or corrupts tweens old enough to read it is an attempt at a socially pristine use of language which hasn't held sway for decades
If a child (hypothetical) of mine ran across that word in a magazine, I'd probably be pleased s/he was reading something but if questioned, would mention that the word was not totally "nice" or universally acceptable. It certainly was a good use of "causal" cussing (driven to the wall) as opposed to "casual" cussing (peppering one's speech with f-bombs and such).
Just my $.02. - al
From my vantage point of many years, I have noticed children do not react to things outside their usual realm.
Two examples. Back in 1965 while attending a company school (an 11 month one), my family came to live with me during the summer. The 12 year old daughter was reading a book, from off the shelf in the rental house. about a family raising tobacco in Connecticut. I looked at the book one evening and was concerned that there several adult themes besides the growing of tobacco. Since she didn't seem immersed in the book, I didn't say anything. But ten years later I asked her had the 'adult themes' concerned her. She was completely unaware of them; they hadn't even triggered her curiousity!
Another example: The woman next door related that, while shopping, her 5 year old daughter started banging on the gum ball machine. The mother asked what was wrong. "I put a penny in this machine and danged thing won't give me my gum!' Now if she had used danged, her comment might have passed unnoticed but she had used the full blown profanity, a phrase the child's father often used.
Children immitate their parents far more readily than what they see in the occasional advertisement or piece of literature.
And finally, the Navy had me singing 'Don't Give Up the Ship', and the last line of that song is "If you have to take a lickin', take it man and quit your bitchin': DONT GIVE UP THE SHIP!" And I was just barely 18 years of age. You might say the Navy was quite insistent, and they got my attention.
Convicted One Just another opportunity to descend to the level of the least common denominator? If several children going to school with yours smoke crack, are you going to condone it as a pervasive evil as well?
Just another opportunity to descend to the level of the least common denominator? If several children going to school with yours smoke crack, are you going to condone it as a pervasive evil as well?
Ok. Lets use this analogy you've posted. Let's look at your "avatar" here, too. You are smoking a pipe. Lip and mouth cancer could result from smoking a pipe, so could throat and esophogal cancer as well as lung cancer. Second hand smoke is reportedly even more dangerous to you and to those around you. Any childeren who see your picture sucking on a poisonous,cancer causing tobacco smoke will assume you condone this dangerous practice? Should the lords of the internet here, therefore, demand you take down your picture?
Ya know, there come a point where you've got to trust yourself, your teachings, and those you taught your teachings. If your teachings have merit, integrety, and truth, then you need not worry how those you taught receive messages. If you don't believe in yourself and your teachings, then you must start over beginning with yourself. The delecate balance of popular writing is to thread the needle so that what is written and published can communicate with as broad an audience as possible. One cannot expect to keep the attention and interest of the educated or of those learned in a given field while at the same time keeping words and ideas camaflouged so that a 5 year old isn't "contaminated". You can't have it all ways and you can't protect everybody all the time. The idea of reading is to learn new things and adnvace one as a human being. If one has been doctrinated in truth and discrimination, and what is right and wrong, then there is no reason writers have to tiptoe around.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
wjstix Well actually the "b" word that was used was "bitching" which means complaining. AFAIK it's not considered "profanity"??.
Well actually the "b" word that was used was "bitching" which means complaining. AFAIK it's not considered "profanity"??.
Perhaps you should do your homework more thouroughly?
From Wiktionary: Profane (adj) to violate, to treat with abuse, irreverence, obloquy, or contempt; to desecrate; to pollute; as, to profane the name of God; to profane the Scriptures, or the ordinance of God; To put to a wrong or unworthy use-
K4sPRR If they did add that word they better look at the world around them and not a magazine that has a dedicated hobbiest following. Chances are he's only looking at the pictures anyway. What don't you understand, television, comic books, school classmates, walking through a mall, newspapers, a vice president using the F word, sport hero's and their tweets, billboards, graffiti, and the list can go on. Long Live Barney Fife.
If they did add that word they better look at the world around them and not a magazine that has a dedicated hobbiest following. Chances are he's only looking at the pictures anyway. What don't you understand, television, comic books, school classmates, walking through a mall, newspapers, a vice president using the F word, sport hero's and their tweets, billboards, graffiti, and the list can go on.
Long Live Barney Fife.
If they did add that word they better look at the world around them and not a magazine that has a dedicated hobbiest following. Chances are he's only looking at the pictures anyway. What don't you understand, television, comic books, school classmates, walking through a mall, newspapers, a vice president using the F word, sport hero's and their tweets, billboards, graffiti, and the list can go on. Blaming a magazine that has a following limited to those interested in that topic for simply quoting a line to get the feel of the story is as stated above, "Much ado about nothing". I suggest you put your child in a cage and keep him away from life as it is. Is this revenge for your topic being closed when you totally disrespected law enforcement? Good role model Pops.
Classic Trains and their staff, keep up the good work on a great publication.
henry6 Love, hate, war, water and air pollution, climate change and global warming, hunger, waste, ignorance, education, freedom, justice. The list goes on. Many things more worth worrying about than saving the world from words.
Love, hate, war, water and air pollution, climate change and global warming, hunger, waste, ignorance, education, freedom, justice. The list goes on. Many things more worth worrying about than saving the world from words.
Long after the recent Classic Trains magazine article is gone and forgotten, great American rhetoric will remain with us. Excerpts from Classic Speeches of our three greatest Presidents who changed the world with their words.:
George Washington’s Farewell Address: Not unconscious, in the outset, of the inferiority of my qualifications, experience in my own eyes, perhaps still more in the eyes of others, has strengthened the motives to diffidence of myself; and every day the increasing weight of years admonishes me more and more, that the shade of retirement is as necessary to me as it will be welcome. Satisfied, that, if any circumstances have given peculiar value to my services, they were temporary, I have the consolation to believe, that, while choice and prudence invite me to quit the political scene, patriotism does not forbid it.
Abraham Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address: With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s Address to Congress: Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 -- a date which will live in infamy -- the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan……….With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph -- so help us God. I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.
Alton Junction
BaltACD Much ado about very little.
I appreciate all your thoughts on this topic. Although most of our readers haven't been children for a long time, we do consider Classic Trains to be a family magazine, at least in terms of the language used. We also recognize that many adults do not care to be subjected to bad language in our pages -- there's enough of it everywhere else, as some of you noted. On the other hand, railroading is not a delicate business, and the air in crew rooms and engine cabs could be quite blue at times.
We approach the subject of even mild profanity with care. Some words we of course would never consider publishing. Others, such as those in the Bad Ride story, can get in, provided they contribute to the story and are not merely gratuitous. As author Ralph Podas knows, we edited his brother's letter for length, clarity -- and language. Although the brother did not use any language that was "worse" than what appeared in print, there were a number of mild profanities that we thought were unnecessary to the story and -- by their sheer volume -- potentially offensive to readers. This of course is no indictment of the brother, who never imagined his letter would someday be published.
Rob McGonigal, Editor
Editor, Classic Trains magazine
Today, even Disney no longer follow's Thumper's advice that "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"! Or if you 'can't say anything in a nice way, don't say it'. Today's language both in common use as well as written or otherwise published, just isn't the way it was 10 or more years ago. Language and society change in concert whether we like it or not. The part of the arguement being taken up here was fought years ago; the use of many terms in print, in moveis, TV, and music today are far beyond the simple words used in this article. We want to reverse so much in our society today, including language and that percieved to be offensive by definition. How practical is that in view of progress needed to move on. There may be more important things to deal with than a few words and their meanings.
Convicted One I was reading the article "Rough Ride on the PRR" in the latest edition, and I was just wondering if Kalmbach really thinks that profanity enhances the quality of its product? The author clearly had a negative experience riding a pennsey passenger train from Fort Wayne to Chicago, but chose to elaborate on his need to complain in a manner that seems....."unprofessional" to say the least. (the "b" word)
I was reading the article "Rough Ride on the PRR" in the latest edition, and I was just wondering if Kalmbach really thinks that profanity enhances the quality of its product? The author clearly had a negative experience riding a pennsey passenger train from Fort Wayne to Chicago, but chose to elaborate on his need to complain in a manner that seems....."unprofessional" to say the least. (the "b" word)
Well actually the "b" word that was used was "bitching" which means complaining. AFAIK it's not considered "profanity"?? It's used pretty commonly in TV, movies and everyday life. In another part of the story he uses the common "s.o.b." abbreviation instead of spelling out the "b" word you're thinking of, rather than actually using it.
He uses "***" several times, which has been in common use in primetime television for several decades, and for a long time before that in movies (at least back to 1939's "Gone With the Wind"). It's so common now that it's not generally considered that big a deal. Even as far back as George Carlin's "Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television" it wasn't one of the seven words.
PRRR7000 Some people need to get a life. With all the bad things happening in the world today a grown man gets red-faced over a few unseemly words? Grow up. Classic Trains, keep up the excellent work.
Some people need to get a life. With all the bad things happening in the world today a grown man gets red-faced over a few unseemly words? Grow up.
Classic Trains, keep up the excellent work.
This is only your second post in 4 1/2 years, and this is it?
I imagine that your first post was just as substantive as this one. LOL
I read thge article a week or two ago, and honestly, I had forgotten that there was anything in there, that I wouldn't say in front of my Mother-in-Law. There definitely was nothing in there that offended me so much that I was amazed it was in print, or that I felt compelled to complain to the publisher about. I Enjoyed the article, and it did not affect my opinion of the magazine at all.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
[quote user="Convicted One"]
"Where does one draw the line? should we be able to post pictures here where rail cars have been defaced with grafitti depicting sexual or racist materials (why not, afterall, THEY ARE EVERYWHERE, etc)" Sexual or racist material is a very different senario compared to language that today is even common place on prime time television. Lets just hope that in the future the magazine is consious of the concerns of its readers and does not cross a more critical line. If they do not set rules for forums or blogs such as this can you imagine how far some people will go? We have all seen it, offensive language and outright disrespect toward people, their profession, their hobby, and doing such without regard to what the forum is really all about.
I first read this about 40 hours ago, right after it was first posted, and I just couldn't form an opinion on this issue.
I read the article in question a few weeks ago, and really didn't even pay any notice to the "profanity" used in the article. After the OP posted his objection, however, I went back and re-read the article.
As has been noted, the language in question was taken verbatim from a 63 year old letter. True, the author of the article could have omitted that brief portion of the letter or edited it by noting "expletive deleted". Kalmbach could have chosen to do the same thing.
As Crandell pointed out, profane language is barred from this website, so consistency would dictate that the same language be barred from the magazine. However, having said that, I started a Conversation with myself as a test, and the B word was permitted although the D word (used several times in the article) was barred.
My first inclination was that this thread was much ado about nothing. But, after reflecting on it for two days, I am going to side with the Convicted One, the OP of this thread. As he queried, where does one draw the line? If I have a letter from my brother about railroading, and it is filled with worse profanities than the words in question here, would Kalmbach print it? Should Kalmbach print it? I think not.
I am by no means a prude. I can cuss with the best of them and sometimes do. But Classic Trains magazine is not an adult magazine per se. It can be read by kids and probably often is read by youngsters. If the author chooses not to use discretion, then the publisher should.
Rich
I one is comfortable with his own morality, intellegence, and education and if one is comfortable with the morals, intellegence, and education passed on to offspring, if one is comfortable as to how one lives, who he knows and who knows him, then, what is there to be afraid of?
Should I not rely on my own sense of morality and propriety in not posting what I feel is offensive to me or my fellows? And should I not feel the same about the moral sense and propriety of those who are my fellows to do the same? And when either of the two exeeds the limits, he should be reminded of such, maybe repremanded where necessary, but certainly the thoughts and material should not be kept secret.
henry6 In short, what is the use of hiding yourself or shielding others from what is real? It is totally unrealistic in this day and age.
In short, what is the use of hiding yourself or shielding others from what is real? It is totally unrealistic in this day and age.
Where does one draw the line? should we be able to post pictures here where rail cars have been defaced with grafitti depicting sexual or racist materials (why not, afterall, THEY ARE EVERYWHERE, etc)
I think that Selector is on the same wavelength I am here. If the Mag is going to set rules for the rest of us, then the same rules ought to be good enough for the master, as well.
Shy of referring to a female dog, I think it's kind of sad that people don't find the word offensive. Do we really have to lower ourselves to the lowest level of language? We see stuff about gangs, rape, murder, child porn, and drugs everyday, should we accept those as the normal ways of life? Using the line of logic that "We see worse every day, so what's the big deal" would mean that we have to take those as acceptable too. You can bleep your own words and people will know what you are saying when it's a quote, Beyond that, if you can't get a sentence out without profanity to explain something, then you really need lessons in the English (or any other) language. We've fallen into the habit of accepting every bit of slang and screwed up meaning for a word that it's getting harder and harder to get a straight meaning out of a simple sentence or conversation. As to how kids talk, for most, the use of profanity is kind of the "forbidden fruit" they use the latest words that shock people until they no longer shock anybody, then those become commonplace and they search for the next big shocker. By saying it's okay to talk that way you just encourage them to screw up the language and their education even more.
Just my three cents/sense worth.
The author, Mr. Ralph S. Podas, a World War II veteran! and his late wife Ann.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/RSP.jpg http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/RSP2.jpg Mike
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/RSP.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e390/MikeMacDonald/RSP2.jpg
Mike
My two cents: If the forums and magazine are about equally appealing to a broad demographic, and if the forum rules are what they are for the reasons stated, why would/should the magazine be any different? And yet, at what point do you allow boys and girls to eavesdrop on adult language and adult subjects? We all get "polluted" in various ways as we go through life, some at a most tender age. What to do?
I hear what you're saying, but I'll be honest with you, as the parent of a six and three year old I would almost be relieved if the language in that article is the worst thing they read or hear in a given day. I've heard much worse from other kids their age out on the playground not to mention adults in public at stores and restaurants. I look forward to the day when they might want to read "daddy's train books".
--Reed
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