Does anyone know who manufactured the sleeping and restaurant cars on the Orient during the operating periods between WWI and WWII and after WWII?
If we start with the Lx ("luxury") sleeping cars now used on the Venice Simplon Orient Express, these were built in 1929 by Metropolitan-Cammell in Birmingham, UK and by Entreprises Industrielles Charentaises of La Rochelle, France. The dining car on the present train WR4110, was also built by Metro-Cammell in Birmingham in 1927. The Pullman car, equivalent to an American parlor, used as a lounge and diner on the VSOE, WPC 4141 was built by Charentaises in La Rochelle in 1929. The bar car was built as dining car WR 3674 by Charentaises in 1930.
The first steel sleeping cars were class S1 built by Leeds Forge in the UK in 1922-23. Most of the European builders participated at some time or other in building the inter war and post war fleets. Many cars were built in Belgium, Germany, France and Italy and Wagon-Lits even built some cars at their own workshops in St Denis in France.
If you could be more precise, I could quote a builder for any numbered car... But there were around 6000 cars and I'm not going to list them all by number and builder. Some of those were used in other areas, but almost any standard sleeper or diner could have run one of the Orient Express services in the 1920s and 1930s particularly and in the 1950s as well...
For some reason, SNCF had a CIWL Pullman on display as a bar car at the recent Innotrans in Berlin. It was built by Charentaises...
M636C
There are several great books on the OE, some quite recent, that have great details and history. Check your library, favorite book store, Trains ads, and, of course, Ebay, Amazon or other on line sources.
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M636C, thank you for the very detailed reply. Which model railroad company do you think makes the best version of the Orient for O guage?
Henry 6, thanks for the info.
henry6 There are several great books on the OE, some quite recent, that have great details and history. Check your library, favorite book store, Trains ads, and, of course, Ebay, Amazon or other on line sources.
My recommendation would be "Luxury Trains" by George Behrend by the Vendome Press
ISBN 0-86565-016-0
This was originally published 1977 in French by Office du Livre, Fribourg Switzerland.
This has an amazing collection of photos of Wagon-Lits cars and complete fleet lists including builder and history notes including a full list of British Pullman cars which were basically parlour cars.
An earlier book "Rollende Hotels" by Dr Fritz Stockl, published by Bohmann in Vienna in 1967 (in German) provided similar fleet lists and more specific details of particular trains, including the various Orient Expresses. It suggests that standard S class sleeping cars were used on Orient Expresses on the various routes in the 1930s. A later book by Stockl, "Wagon -Lits" published by Slezak in Vienna in 1984 is an excellent collection of photos to complement his earlier book.
"Orient Express" by Werner Solch, published by Alba in Berlin in 1974 (also in German) gives some details of the cars used on the various Orient Expresses through the years but pays particular attention to the steam locomotives used.
For example, the 231E Nord Pacific modelled by MTH was only used on the Calais-Paris connecting service for the Venice Simplon Orient Express for passengers from London, and did not work the train south or east of Paris.
David Lipeles M636C, thank you for the very detailed reply. Which model railroad company do you think makes the best version of the Orient for O guage?
This question would be better asked in the "Classic Toy Trains " forum...
I think the best models available are the Rivarossi HO scale models: I have a number of those....
I don't really know much about what is available in O gauge. I looked at the MTH catalog. The blue and blue and cream MTH cars look good but I wouldn't expect to see more than one blue and cream Pullman in a single Orient Express train. The basic five car set illustrated has two Pullmans but only one sleeper of a type I can't identify. The contents of the Add on set aren't specified.
I would stay away from the so-called "brown Orient Express" set. While some sleepers were brown, they were varinished teak, not painted steel. The baggage car with the removable containers was basically only used on the "Golden Arrow" with brown and cream Pullman cars. I know of no brown Wagon Lits steel sleeping cars or steel dining cars...
But the blue, and blue and cream MTH cars look accurate enough if not specific to the Orient Express.
There have been European made models in O gauge but these would generally be far more expensive than the MTH models. But asking the question on the other forum might get a better response.
More sources for good info (in German, but with lots of pictures)
"Orient Express" Werner Sölch, Alba Buchverlag ISBN 3-87094-021-2
"Die blauen Schlaf- und Speisewagen" (the blue sleepers and diners) Alba Buchverlag ISBN 3-87094-035-2
Regards
ER
The Tree People More sources for good info (in German, but with lots of pictures) "Orient Express" Werner Sölch, Alba Buchverlag ISBN 3-87094-021-2 "Die blauen Schlaf- und Speisewagen" (the blue sleepers and diners) Alba Buchverlag ISBN 3-87094-035-2 Regards ER
I did mention Soelch's book in a post above. Its strengths are timetables and locomotives, but is a bit weak on the cars themselves. I haven't seen the Alba CIWL book but I have other books of theirs on German cars that are very good. But Berhend's book has really good illustrations.
Thanks for all the detail. You've given me quite few things to research.
I realise my comment about the "Golden Arrow" could be misinterpreted...
The "Golden Arrow" originally had brown and cream Pullman cars (In Europe, "Pullman" referred to what are called "parlor" cars in the USA) because brown was the standard colour of trains on the Nord railway which operated to Calais where the ferry service to Dover in England was operated.
The specicial baggage cars had containers which were loaded on the ferry and run to London on similar cars so baggage was not handled...
Later, the Nord allocated Pullman cars were painted blue and cream to better match the blue sleeping cars and to match the Wagon Lits image. The baggage container cars continued to run with Pullman cars in blue and cream.
To return to the MTH models, I did realise that the sets of cars offered were all shown in the catalogue. While marketed as the "Orient Express", the cars would allow reasonable models of the "Golden Arrow" to be run, hence the additional Pullmans and special baggage car. Also, they are trying to represent the connection to the Orient Express from Calais which is appropriate for the "Nord" or SNCF Northern Region locomotive they sell, where through sleeping cars would have been combined with basically a day "Pullman" service.
M636C,
Do you know if Is it true that each Pullman car had its own female name? These were British Pullmans, right? None from the US?
David Lipeles M636C, Do you know if Is it true that each Pullman car had its own female name? These were British Pullmans, right? None from the US?
Only "First Class" Pullmans in Britain were named.
The other cars, known as "Third Class" until the 1950s and "Second Class" later were known by a car number which was the last two digits of the full car number.
Many of these names on first class cars were female first names but others were names of birds, places, palaces names from Greek mythology, not that different from the names of US Pullman cars.
Many of the cars built during the 1920s and 1930s had female names, particularly those on the Southern Railway electric trains and these were disproportionately represented on the current Venice Simplon Orient Express set in Britain.
In general, Pullmans used in Europe were not named except for some British Pullmans used in Italy at the beginning of the service.
British Pullman cars were built in the USA until 1906 and the last three of these were named "Duchess of Norfolk", "Princess Ena" and "Princess Patricia" which are female names but not as used in the 1930s. The first car in 1874 was named "Midland". An 1875 car was named "Ohio".
CIWL Pullmans used in Egypt were named with Egyptian names - Rosetta, Le Sphinx, and similar.
So one can ride in the original LX luxury sleeper cars on the current Venice Simplon Orient Express? I understand that these cars were transferred from the Wagon Lit operation to the present owners, Where do they get the parts to maintain them and the service technicians to install and repair?
David Lipeles So one can ride in the original LX luxury sleeper cars on the current Venice Simplon Orient Express? I understand that these cars were transferred from the Wagon Lit operation to the present owners, Where do they get the parts to maintain them and the service technicians to install and repair?
Sorry about the delay...
Chapter 3 of Shirley Sherwood's "Venice Simplon Orient Express" book explains the repair and maintenance aspects of the introduction of the train. The sleeping cars were overhauled in the former Wagons-Lits workshop near Ostend in Belgium (still maintaining the railway owned sleeping cars) and the Pullmans and Dining Cars at Bremer Waggonbau in Bremen Germany. The British Pullmans were overhauled at special workshop set up at Carnforth in the UK.
It was emphasised that the cars were all brought up to current standards in all technical respects.
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