1967 D&RGW Royal Gorge

[Texas Zepher]

Bringing this back to the top.  To anyone who was interested in the Division Point D&RGW cars.  In December 2011 Division Point announced a re-run of these.

http://www.divisionpoint.com/DRGW_light2.html

[riogrande5761]

The latest picture I've been able to find for the Royal Gorge is May 19, 1966 in James Sandrins book Rio Grande Trackside with Jim Ozment.  It shows the following:

PA (4 stripe)
F7A (single stripe) 
HW Harriman? baggage (4 stripe)
P-S chair car (same as Walthers 52 seat coach - 4 stripe)

The caption labels it as an abbreviated No. 1 rolling west through Portland CO and a harbinger of the future short consists which would be typical after the cut back to Salida later that year in December 6.

The RG equipement generally did not match, as in all light weight passenger cars.  I have seen the odd example of matched passenger cars on the RG in photo's from the 1960's (one example is given below).  The Prospector was the premier home grown train and second only to the CZ, so it got all matched P-S equipment from the very beginning that is was purchased (~1950)  and maintained top notch appearances until it was discontinued in 1967.

It is a shame the Div Pt cars didn't get lights.  The BLI CZ cars all got lights and they were around $65 MSRP, but weren't the Div Pt cars around $500 ea?  They were gorgeous but I simply couldn't afford approx $500 on a passenger car.  I used to have a full set of 11 kumata OMI/Challenger/HCB CZ set but sold it and replaced it with a BLI set.  The only thing I have by Div Pt is a D&RGW 01400 series 3 window caboose.  I bought two at first but didn't care for how they did the moderized windows and returned one of them.  Technically they were correct but the insert they used to make the modernized windows was way too deeply recessed and didn't look right.  Div Pt did a lovely job on their cars in photo's I've seen.

What I'm using to make a Yampa Valley Mail is a P-S combine (same as those used on the RGZ) and a P-S 52 seach chair car, although this was far from typical since most of the time the dome-chair cars were used.  The Walthers 52 seat P-S chair car is 99% correct for the Prospector chair cars so those were an inexpensive way to get an important P-S passenger car.  Add to that I have a couple of the Palace Car Company P-S Dorm/Bag/Chair combines - the very same car used on the Rio Grande Zephyr.  One of them copies the post 1975 car that had the dorm windows blanked out and the side skirts removed, and the other copies the Pre-1972 version which is basically original configuration.  A P-S combine and chair car would be a plausible Yampa Valley Mail of the last few years it was run.  Here are some consists as seen in some photo's I have: (4 stripe is Y/S is the yellow over silver paint with 4 black stripes)

Here are some sample consists of the Yampa Valley Mail and the Royal Gorge in the 1960's:

Yampa Valley Mail:

May 1962:
PA (4-stripe)
HW RPO (green)
HW coach (4 stripe full clerestory)

Aug 1962:
PA (4 stripe)
HW RPO (green)
HW stream styled coach (4 stripe) breadloaf roof line

Mar 1965:
F7A (1 stripe)
PB (1 stripe, last spring as a powered B unit)
HW RPO (4-stripe)
Budd dome chair (4-stripe)

Mar 1965:
F7A (1 stripe)
PB (1 stripe)
HW RPO (green)
Budd some chair (1 stripe)

Nov 1965:
PA (1 stripe)
HW RPO 4-stripe)
Budd dome-chair (1 stripe)

Mar 1966
PA (4 stripe)
F7B (1 stripe)
HW baggage (4 stripe)
2 Budd dome-chars (1 stripe)
Sep 1966:
PA (1 stripe)
HW RPO (4 stripe)
Budd dome-chair (1 stripe)

June 1967:
F7A (1 stripe) #5554
P-S dorm/bag/chair combine (1 stripe) side skirts removed
Budd dome-chair

Nov 1966:
PA (1 stripe)
HW baggage (4-stripe)
Budd dome-chair (4-stripe)
P-S lounge (1 stripe)
P-S chair (4-stripe)

Nov 1967:
F7A/F7B (1 stripe) #5574 is the A unit
P-S RPO (1 stripe)
Budd dome-chair (1 stripe)
P-S chair (4-stripe)

Dec 1967:
F7A (4 stripe)
F7B (1 stripe)
P-S RPO (1 stripe)
Budd dome-chair (1 stripe)
HW streamstyled coach (1 stripe)

Mar 1968:
F9m (4 stripe) #5571
F7B (1 stripe)
P-S RPO
Budd dome-chair (1 stripe)
3 HW coaches from the Ski train (1 stripe)

undated Yampa Valley Mail (1965-1966 time frame):
PA (1 stripe)
P-S RPO (1 stripe)
Budd dome-chair (4 stripe)

Royal Gorge:

April 1961:
PA (1 stripe)
PB (4 stripe)
P-S RPO (4 stripe)
HW baggage (4 stripe)
P-S lounge (4 stripe)
Budd dome-chair (4 stripe)
CB&Q dome
Cb&Q duplex sleeper
CB&Q sleeper

1961 (All 4 stripe light weight cars!):
PA/PB
P-S RPO
P-S lounge
Budd dome-chair

Dec 1962 (all visible cars in 4-stripe paint):
PA/PB
F7A/F7A
P-S RPO
3 HW baggage cars
(remainder of train out of the picture)

Oct 1964:
PA (4 stripe)
PB (1 stripe)
F7A (1 stripe)
P-S RPO (1 stripe)
HW baggage (4 stripe)
Budd dome-chair (1 stripe)
CB&Q budd dome
CB&Q duplex sleeper
CB&Q sleeper (unknown type)

Aug 1965:
F7A (1 stripe)
F9A (1 stripe)
PA (4 stripe)
P-S baggage
box car style RPO (green)
HW chair car (4 stripe)
P-S lounge
CB&Q budd duplex sleepr
CB&Q budd sleeper
yellow unidentified passenger car

Aug 1965:
PA (4-stripe)
F7A (1 stripe)
HW stream styled coach with breadload roof line (4 stripe)
HW baggae (4 stripe)

All of the above were taken from photos in Rio Grande Diesels Volume 1 & 3 (Strapac), Colorful Colorado in the 1960's (Hill), and Zehpyrs thru the Rockies (Edmundson & Goodheart)

For sure the two most common passenger cars in either YVM or RG trains is the P-S RPO and Budd dome-chair.  The P-S lounge seemed to be a fixture in the RG.  Heavyweight RPO and baggage cars were used in either YVM or RG in the 1960's too.  My YMV using a P-S chair and combine would be possible but a bit of a stretch.  Both cars were seen in the YVM but almost always a Budd dome-chair was present too and the P-S chair added for extra capacity.

The CB&Q cars were always interesting to see in the RG consists in photo's taken on the joint line south of Denver.  Apparently the Rio Grande had a contract to ferry CB&Q cars from Colorado Springs to Denver and back, which were cars from the CB&Q Denver Zephyr train.  Those cars were ferried either as part of the Rio Gorge or in a 2nd section Royal Gorge train.

[Texas Zepher]

riogrande5761

If there was any passenger car I'd get from Div Point it would be the ex-C&O dome-chair cars. 

HA! that was my original plan, but the best laid plans.  After I decided to get the dome, I went hunting for the RPO/baggage to make up a Yampa Valley Flyer and found Division point are the only ones who made that.  But the RPO/B are all sold out except those in the Prospector and R/G sets.  So by getting a R/G set plus one car I can now make either the Royal Gorge or many of the Yampa's.  If I would add the diner then I could make the Prospector as well but that was yet that much more $$.   Maybe I can pick one up later.    The only thing I don't like about the dome coach is that the marker lamps aren't lited or even a jewel but round bumps painted red.  :-(

The Royal Gorge ran with an assortment of heavy weight (stream styled) and P-S light weight equipment.  I have a number of pictures in my Rio Grande Diesels Volume 1 and other books.  The dome-chair and one of the P-S buffet lounge was often in the 1960's consist. Another Royal Gorge ran with a heavy weight baggage and stream styled coach?

As near as I can tell the D&RGW was not nearly as picky as to what equipment was used for what train.   I am even beginning to think that some yard master just choose the equipment almost at random from whatever was sitting around the coach yard at the time the train was made up. 1 loco, check; 1 baggage, check; 1 coach, check;  1 dome, check;  etc. to H ll with whether they matched or not.

[daveklepper]

And that was in addition to the Sante Fe equipment hauled to Pueblo.   The Denver Zephyr's Slumbercoach ran through to Colorado Springs when I rode it.  But this is all before the train was cut back to Salida.  And at that time, much later, the consist was certainly all lightweight.

[passengerfan]

Not sure of the year that CB&Q discontinued the Colorado Springs section of the Denver Zephyr but the Royal Gorge hauled the four cars from Denver to Colorado Springs and back each day starting in 1956. That would make for an interesting addition to the rear of the Royal Gorge.

Al - in - Stockton

[riogrande5761]

 

The Division Point cars cost a small fortune or large fortune depending on your circumstances.  They are gorgeous but I new they were far beyond this po boy's ability to buy!

If there was any passenger car I'd get from Div Point it would be the ex-C&O dome-chair cars.  I managed to get  couple of the Palace Car Company combine cars (one without side skirts and no dorm windows, and the other original configuration).  With those and the Walthers 52 seat P-S coach, one could model an accurate 1960's Yampa Valley Mail.

The Royal Gorge ran with an assortment of heavy weight (stream styled) and P-S light weight equipment.  I have a number of pictures in my Rio Grande Diesels Volume 1 and other books.  The dome-chair and one of the P-S buffet lounge was often in the 1960's consist. Another Royal Gorge ran with a heavy weight baggage and stream styled coach?

[biologybob]

Phil,

Thanks for the "proof" via calendar pic.  I appreciate the info.

Bob

[daveklepper]

I doubt the sleeper was in the consist when the train was cut back from Grand Junction to Salida.   When the Prospector ran and the Royal George ran to Grand Junction, a coach and the sleeper were combined at GJ with the Prospector and ran through to Salt Lake City.   Also combined with the Sante Fe train between Denver and Pueblo.   This included a sleeper and coach for LA.

[Texas Zepher]

biologybob

I am trying to put together a consist for Bob Wirth's MSTS Tennessee Pass route.

That will be a whole lot cheaper than the Division Point cars were

[biologybob]

Thanks, Zeph.  I appreciate the response.  I am trying to put together a consist for Bob Wirth's MSTS Tennessee Pass route.

[THE.RR]

I am looking at the near final answer in McMillian's May 2010 Rio Grande calender.  Nice shot of the Royal Gorge at Littleton in May of '67 with a PA, baggage and 2 coaches.  Baggage is a Harriman / arch roof heavyweight.  Baggage and first coach are in the 4 stripe scheme, PA and rear coach in single stripe.

Phil

[Texas Zepher]

biologybob

I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what a typical consist for the D&RGW's Royal Gorge passenger train would be in 1967.  1967 was the last year of operation and it only went from Denver to Salida.

I just purchased that train as done by Division Point.  These are mostly sold out but a few sets in the 1967 single stripe paint can still be found.

The set consists of a baggage/mail, the dome-coach (from C&O) modified to have the rear door, a lunch counter,  a sleeper 5-5-6, and a regular coach (apparently disccontinued in 1965).    I am going to add a plain two door baggage car.

check out this roster:

http://www.drgw.org/data/passenger/RoyalGorge.htm

[biologybob]

Thanks for responding, Dave.  I appreciate it.

[daveklepper]

Between Pueblo and Salida, probably one Alco PA or GPsomething with Alco ex-B-unit heater car (later used on Rio Grande Zpehyr at times, see the book Never on Wednesday) a lightweight combine and an ex-Chessie snack-bar dome coach, snack bar in the area under the dome.   If the Santa Fe Denver connection was still running at the time, its equpment was combined with the Royal Gorge between Pueblo and Denver.   The snack-bar coach was stainless, but the combine yellow with black trim and lettering, ditto the heater car and the PA. the GPsomething was freight power, the usual  black with yellow lettering.

[biologybob]

I would appreciate it if someone could tell me what a typical consist for the D&RGW's Royal Gorge passenger train would be in 1967.  1967 was the last year of operation and it only went from Denver to Salida.

Thanks,

biologybob