Did the Santa Fe have any USRA Mikados?

[mobilman44]

Hi!

I'm fairly certain the ATSF did not have any USRA light Mikados (2-8-2), but did they have any USRA Heavy Mikes?

Thank you,

Mobilman44

[UP 4-12-2]

I've studied this thoroughly in the past, as I have owned USRA light and heavy mikes in both large scale and HO (in large scale, LGB offered them in Santa Fe paint).

Simple Answer:  NO absolutely not.  No Santa Fe USRA Light Mikes or Heavy Mikes, period.

One must be very careful with online information--especially online historical information regarding the steam era and steam locomotives.  Many people--including some of those who were there at the end of steam--simply do not know as much as they think they do or would have us to believe.  Just because someone was even a young employee of the ATSF at that time does not mean that his books are accurate on technical issues.

While it seems I'm on my soapbox here, it was online information on this very issue that initially steered me wrong:

There are websites on the Internet that allege that some early classes of  Baldwin-built Santa Fe mikados (3100-class built in 1913 and/or 3129-class built during 1916) were so close to the USRA design that in fact the USRA design was based upon the Santa Fe engines.  If you search out photos of those engines (I didn't have ready access to the brass models), it becomes quite obvious that while Santa Fe mikados shared some very similar overall proportions (driver size, wheelbase, tractive effort, etc.) they were completely different creatures and have absolutely no relation to USRA motive power.  Any similarity of overall dimensions is purely coincidental.  Perhaps the overall dimensions may have provided a "starting point" for the design calcs, but that would be it.

They did obtain 3 secondhand PRR L-1 mikados near the end of WWII, and they did press them into service with the PRR Belpaire boilers fully intact, but they never acquired any secondhand USRA mikados.

In fact, to the best of my knowledge, the only secondhand USRA engines Santa Fe ever owned were the 8 Norfolk and Western original USRA order Y-3 class 2-8-8-2's.  No other USRA originals, and no other USRA copies.

For more information, I recommend Worley's Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail and Huddleston's Uncle Sam's Locomotives.

For actual Santa Fe steam locomotive test results (the late designs only) documented in print (but still not totally complete as some test runs apparently were left out at printing or were simply missing), read S. Kip Farrington's The Santa Fe's Big Three (this is a reference to the three marvelous 2-10-4, 4-8-4, and 4-6-4 classes of the Santa Fe).  Stick to this original source as figures from it have been misquoted in more recent books on Santa Fe steam.  Always go back to the primary sources.

My 2c.

Best Regards--

John Mock

[mobilman44]

John,

  Thank you, you confirmed my thought on the subject. 

What initiated it was my finding that Broadway Limited is "fixin" to put out two HO USRA ATSF Heavy Mikes this coming year.  I was skeptical as I got burned on their ATSF Light Mike which I bought a couple of years ago.  I "assumed" it was appropriate as BLI is (I thought) very serious about putting out proper models.  Well, I got the Light Mike and of course it didn't have proper number boards or tubed "cowcatcher", etc.   I ended up selling it on Ebay rather than messing with it.

So yesterday I saw where they are offering two USRA Heavy ATSF Mikes, and even though I have a number of ATSF books, I had to ask the question. 

Oh, to make matters worse, the two numbers they are offering are two digits above the last one of the 3800 class - per Worley's Iron Horses of the Santa Fe. 

Thanks again, you saved me $275!

Mobilman44

PS:  I really am disappointed in Broadway Limited, for I thought they were above slapping a desired road name on a loco model that never existed. 

 

[UP 4-12-2]

See--everybody slams MTH for doing things like that--but they are no better or worse than any other manufacturer.  It's about sales and maximizing the return on the tooling investment.  That--and--now everybody is aware that Exactrail can put out unprototypical paint schemes and sell them out just like the correct ones. 

Watch for more red and silver warbonnet diesels that never were (as in large scale).

At least MTH flags the "Imagine Series" catalog symbol to let those concerned about accuracy know that some roadnames offered are a "should've been" or "we wish it was" as opposed to "correct".

By BLI's numbering the USRA heavy in the number series above the 3800's, that was their subtle way of letting the Santa Fe purists know it is not correct.

I can't really fault BLI for slapping Santa Fe on the 2-8-2, because for every modeler concerned about accuracy, there is somebody else begging them to do "more Santa Fe steam power".  So although some of us might be disappointed, I'm sure there will be others who are quite happy with a "should've been" USRA Heavy 2-8-2 painted in "their" roadname.  At the end of the day, the more Blueline USRA mikados they sell, the more brass hybrid "correct" higher end models will eventually materialize.

So I'll try to take the good with the...less desirable.

Best Regards-

John Mock

P.S.  It seems we may be going through a time when, although many are interested in BNSF and buy that roadname, there are others who prefer the railroads that came before--and some have been becoming more vocal about that.  Santa Fe has always been a pretty good selling roadname.

 

[cudaken]

UP 4-12-2

One must be very careful with online information--especially online historical information regarding the steam era and steam locomotives.  Many people--including some of those who were there at the end of steam--simply do not know as much as they think they do or would have us to believe.  Just because someone was even a young employee of the ATSF at that time does not mean that his books are accurate on technical issues.

 

 I all most bought one line, thanks for the answer.

[wjstix]

It's not unusual for a manufacturer to say in effect "the ABC railroad didn't have USRA whatevers, but their 2000 class engines were very similar, so we're offering our model decorated for that railroad". I don't think doing that is wrong, but I do think they should be up front in saying something like that in their ads. (For example, the Soo Line had some 4-8-2's that were very similar to USRA light mountains. If Bachmann Spectrum offered their light mountain decorated for the Soo, I could see myself getting one. )

One thing to keep in mind about steam engines is that steam engines built in 1910-20 were pretty plain when they were delivered. Many of them received many added appliances and piping (feedwater heaters, additional air pumps, etc.) over the years. So, it is possible that a Santa Fe 2-8-2 as delivered looked fairly close to a USRA engine as delivered, but that by the thirties or forties it had been changed considerably...at least, close enough that someone could add some details to make a reasonably accurate ATSF model out of a USRA model.

[UP 4-12-2]

wjstix

...So, it is possible that a Santa Fe 2-8-2 as delivered looked fairly close to a USRA engine as delivered, but that by the thirties or forties it had been changed considerably...at least, close enough that someone could add some details to make a reasonably accurate ATSF model out of a USRA model.

Well, I think I understand your argument, and it would seem quite reasonable and logical.

However, to take a USRA mikado and make it into a Santa Fe one will be major surgery.  You need a totally different Santa Fe-style cab, that is very different from any USRA cab.  You need the Santa Fe style pilot (available in brass but likely getting hard to find now).  Even just the tender is major surgery--most had OIL tenders--and the boiler of Santa Fe 2-8-2's appears to be rather different (fatter than) USRA.  The Santa Fe grate area and driver diameter is comparable to the USRA light, but tractive effort is about 15% higher.

I think somebody did do either the Santa Fe oil tender or the NdeM oil tender in large scale from the USRA light mikado--and it was indeed major surgery.  NdeM received a number of ex-NKP USRA original light mikado's (identical to NKP 587), converted them to oil, and ran them into 1964 and later.

Excepting the ex-N&W Y-3's, Santa Fe steam just does not look like anything USRA.

Here's links to a few ATSF images from Don's Depot:

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1105/bl576.jpg

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1001/ms043.jpg

http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr0105/bl628.jpg

Respectfully submitted,

John