Greetings from Russia!
What is the difference between Boxpok driving wheel center and Scullin driving wheel center? Is it correct to say Boxpok & Scullin driving whrrl senters are the disk driving wheel centers?
Valeriy.
Boxpok and Scullin drivers are the common disk driver center designs. Visually, the scullin design appears more solid, with only a few comparatively small circular holes in the visible surface. Boxpok drivers have large egg-shaped holes, almost like the spaces between the spokes of a conventional spoked driver, but with circular rather than square ends.
It's interesting to note that, while disk drivers were considered more 'modern' than spoked drivers, the last locomotives built for mainline service in the United States all had spoked driver centers rather than disks.
One aberration that showed up toward the end of steam was the installation of disk main drivers on older locomotives, with the other drivers remaining the original spoked variety. I presume, but cannot prove, that this was done to correct for worn out main crankpins.
Chuck
Thank you, Chuck.
Yes, I know that N&W last steam engines (J class, A class, Y6b class) had spoked drivers. I hope it is interest for you, but the last steam locomotives in Russia (L class, LV class, P36 class) had only disk drivers.
Please, visit http://home.earthlink.net/~steamloc/
This is Atlantic Coast Line R-1 4-8-4 by Baldwin. Note the type of driving wheel. Is it boxpok or spoke driving wheel?
Valeriy
The ACL 4-8-4 had Baldwin disc drivers.
There must be lots of pics of Scullin drivers, and you'll see they're unmistakeable.
Boxpok drivers usually had the egg-shaped openings, but sometimes the openings were larger-- four large near-circles. Some NP 4-8-4s, for instance.
Boxpok drivers with four large almost-circular openings were pretty much standard on later Japanese steam, starting in the late 1930s. The only exception was the E10 class 4-10-2T, which had 'conventional' Boxpok drivers.
Classes of locomotives which were first produced earlier [C56 (2-6-0,) C11 (2-6-4T) and C12 (2-6-2T) classes] were built with spoked drivers until they went out of production, as late as 1947.
Quoting from page 71 of author Robert J Church's The 4300 4-8-2's, Southern Pacific's Mt-Class Locomotives from Signature Press, publisher: "The main driver received the piston thrust along with the reciprocating forces of the side rods. If a cracked spoke occurred, it was usually on the main driver. In 1946, it became standard practice to replace defective main drivers with "Boxpok" (General Steel Castings) or "Universal" (Locomotive Furnished Materials) disc wheel centers which were much more durable. But spoked main drivers were only replaced if flawed, so many locomotives retained all spoked drivers until they were scrapped."
Mark
Well Mark.
To my regret I have no this book in my home library. I know Boxpok driving wheel centers by General Steel Casting Corporation, driving wheel centers by Scullin Steel Co., welded driving wheel centers, Bullied Firth Brown boxpok wheel senters, of course spoke type driving wheels, but I never searched information about universal disc wheel centers. What is the design of this type? Do you have a picture of universal wheel centers?
ValeriyI never searched information about universal disc wheel centers. What is the design of this type? Do you have a picture of universal wheel centers?
The book has photographs showing Boxpok and Universal disc drivers, but the photographs are copyrighted by others. They look very similar to me except the Universal type have larger holes. My untrained eye probably wouldn't be able to distinguish between the two types unless both were available to compare side by side. (Hey, the Universe is bigger than a Box!)
Anybody find a better pic than this of Sheeler's painting?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/washingtoncitypaper/2515652901/sizes/o/
The 5450 is a good example.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5450ao.jpg
The ATSF class 3400 were rebuilt with Universal 79" disc drivers.
http://orion.math.iastate.edu/jdhsmith/term/slusatsf3415.jpg
The openings were more "triangular" and were larger than those in BoxPok wheels.
BoxPok is an abbreviation for "Box Spoke".
M636C
The ATSF class 3400 Universal disc drivers looks like NP 4-8-4 class A-2 #2651 driving wheel centers (see p. 103 Steam`s Finest Hour by David P. Morgan), Chicago & North Western Railway 4-8-4 class H-1 #3055 driving wheel centers (p.94 Guide to North American Steam Locomotives by George H. Drury) or Chicago Great Western Railroad 4-6-0 class E-7 #507 driving wheel centers (p. 109 Guide to North American Steam Locomotives by George H. Drury). Is it Universal disc drivers?
Valeriy The ATSF class 3400 Universal disc drivers looks like NP 4-8-4 class A-2 #2651 driving wheel centers (see p. 103 Steam`s Finest Hour by David P. Morgan),
The ATSF class 3400 Universal disc drivers looks like NP 4-8-4 class A-2 #2651 driving wheel centers (see p. 103 Steam`s Finest Hour by David P. Morgan),
I don't have Morgan's book, but a photo of 2650 on display in Chicago in 1934 appears to have BoxPok wheels. These Boxpoks have large circular holes, but they don't have the raised lip around the hole that all Universal disc wheels have.
Valeriy Chicago & North Western Railway 4-8-4 class H-1 #3055 driving wheel centers (p.94 Guide to North American Steam Locomotives by George H. Drury)
These look to be the same as the drivers on NP 2650, and are BoxPok discs with large holes
Valeriyor Chicago Great Western Railroad 4-6-0 class E-7 #507 driving wheel centers (p. 109 Guide to North American Steam Locomotives by George H. Drury). Is it Universal disc drivers? Valeriy.
Finally, yes, these do indeed look like Universal disc drivers! They appear to have the raised lip around the hole that was a feature of Universal disc drivers. This I think can be seen in the photo of ATSF 3420 on page 21 of the Guide to North American Steam Locomotives by George H. Drury. The holes in these Universal wheels are actually smaller than in some Boxpok wheels, but the appearance is different.
Very good information on Universal drivers, made by the LFM company, are given on pages 206 to 210 of "Santa Fe Locomotive Development" by Larry Brasher.
Santa Fe used Boxpok and Baldwin Disc wheels on new locomotives but used Universal wheels on locomotives they rebuilt, possibly because LFM was a local business in Atchison Kansas.
Russian BoxPok diving wheels were different from most US Boxpok wheels in that they had fewer larger holes, like those Boxpok wheels on NP2650 mentioned above.
Russian BoxPok wheel designs were used on the Chinese QJ 2-10-2 locomotives which had cylinders and wheels based on the Russian LV but the boiler was based on that on the bigger P34 2-6-6-2, and also the wheels on the SY 2-8-2 were of Russian style. The JS had American style BoxPok wheels, but examples of all three classes are now operating (or atleast operational) in the USA.
M636CVery good information on Universal drivers, made by the LFM company, are given on pages 206 to 210 of "Santa Fe Locomotive Development" by Larry Brasher.
M636CRussian BoxPok wheel designs were used on the Chinese QJ 2-10-2 locomotives which had cylinders and wheels based on the Russian LV
We have no this term "BOXPOK" in Russia. Our technical literature used only one term "DISC DRIWING WHEEL CENTER". So, all our steam engines (Class L, class LV, class P36) has disc driving wheel centers (I think because we have no different kinds of disc driving wheel centers).
I found the image of Luisville & Nashville 2-8-4 Class M-1 with wery interesting driving wheel senters on page 128 Locomotive Cyclopedia of American Practice (Thirteenth Edition - 1947). You may see not so better photo on this link:
http://www.lnrailroad.net/lnp12.jpg
I think this is spoke type driving wheel, is not it?
His pic is one of the first order of L&N 2-8-4s, Baldwins that had drivers with those "webbed" spokes (for lack of a better word). Steam's Finest Hour only has a pic of the later 2-8-4s, with Boxpok, but that other circa-1960 Kalmbach coffee-table book, MR Cyclopedia Vol 1, has pics of each.
Valeriy Do you know the "birthday" of Universal drivers? We have no this term "BOXPOK" in Russia. I found the image of Luisville & Nashville 2-8-4 Class M-1 with wery interesting driving wheel senters: http://www.lnrailroad.net/lnp12.jpg I think this is spoke type driving wheel, is not it? Valeriy.
We have no this term "BOXPOK" in Russia.
I found the image of Luisville & Nashville 2-8-4 Class M-1 with wery interesting driving wheel senters: http://www.lnrailroad.net/lnp12.jpg
In his Santa Fe book, Brasher illustrates ATSF Pacific 3401 in July 1935 with a pair of 75" Universal disc main drivers which he thinks was the first example.
A number of webbed driving wheels were used by the Pennsylvania Railroad, possibly supplied by Baldwin.
There were other types of modified spoke driving wheels:
In Western Australia driving wheels with "Y" shaped spokes were used from about 1939 where the fork of the "Y" was at the wheel rim to give more even support.
Also in Australia from about 1948 a design known as SCOA-P which used a spoke of "U" cross section was used. The open side of the "U" faced outward giving the appearance of twin spokes.
The Russian disc wheels are clearly copied from the BoxPok design rather than any of the alternative possibilities, so I would prefer to call them that, even though there were no other types used in the Soviet Union era. The comparison with the Chinese and earlier Japanese copies of US Boxpok wheels also used in China is interesting and informative.
timzHis pic is one of the first order of L&N 2-8-4s, Baldwins that had drivers with those "webbed" spokes (for lack of a better word). Steam's Finest Hour only has a pic of the later 2-8-4s, with Boxpok, but that other circa-1960 Kalmbach coffee-table book, MR Cyclopedia Vol 1, has pics of each.
I forgot I have Kalmbach Cyclopedia Steam Locomotives by Linn H. Westcott seventeenth printing, 2004 in my home library. You are right. There is L&N 2-8-4 class M-1 with BoxPok driving wheel centers (page 88) and the same steam engine with "webbed" driving wheel centers (page 89).
I found one interesting picture of PRR 4-6-2 class K4s with 3 different driving wheel centers: spoke type, boxpok type and "webbed" spoke type (see page 141)!!!
M636CIn his Santa Fe book, Brasher illustrates ATSF Pacific 3401 in July 1935 with a pair of 75" Universal disc main drivers which he thinks was the first example.
Universal disc drivers prodused only Locomotive Furnished Materials or another producer (such as Baldwin)?
Valeriy M636CIn his Santa Fe book, Brasher illustrates ATSF Pacific 3401 in July 1935 with a pair of 75" Universal disc main drivers which he thinks was the first example. Universal disc drivers prodused only Locomotive Furnished Materials or another producer (such as Baldwin)? Valeriy.
I think that the "Universal" name was a trade mark of LFM and only made by them. The oldest Universal drivers had smaller holes spaced further from the centre, and are seen on the earlier ATSF rebuilds.
Baldwin had their own design the "Baldwin Disc".
General Steel Corporation made the "BoxPok", but GSC was half owned each by Baldwin and Alco, so Baldwin had some ownership of both Boxpok and Baldwin Disc designs.
The Kalmbach "Locomotive Cyclopedia Vol 1" is a good reference. There are some errors in the text and in the drawings, but the photographs are just great.
M636CBaldwin had their own design the "Baldwin Disc".
What is Baldwin disc design? It looks like B&M 4-8-2 #4117 (p. 191 The Kalmbach " Cyclopedia -Volume 1 Steam Locomotives by Linn H. Westcott) or ATSF 4-6-4 class 3400 (p. 208 the same book). I am interested in "webbed" driving wheel centers. Is it Baldwin design?
The later B&M 4-8-2s and ATSF 3460 class 4-6-4s did indeed have Baldwin Disc wheels.
(the ATSF 3400 class were 4-6-2s and they and the 3450 class 4-6-4s were fitted with Universal Disc wheels, only the 3460 class 4-6-4s had Baldwin Disc wheels)
On page 153 of the Kalmbach Cyclopedia, there is a very clear view of the "large hole" version of the BoxPok wheel, fitted to C&NW Pacific 2908. These were also on the NP A3 class 4-8-4 and are similar to the Japanese type.
Although Valeriy hasn't asked any further questions, and neither has anyone else, all of the photos referred to made me look more closely at things I had taken for granted. In the Kalmbach Cyclopedia there is a photo of ATSF 4-8-4 2925 with three BoxPok driver sets as built, but the trailing coupled set appears to be a Baldwin disc set (or possibly a Universal set).
It was at this stage I realised that while early Baldwin Disc wheels were clearly identifiable, with narrow holes and prominent stiffening ribs between the holes as applied to the ATSF 1937 locomotives of classes 3460, 3765 and 5001, those fitted to the Wartime 3776 class 4-8-4s, and some other early 1940s types had larger holes and lacked the stiffening ribs.
The still later 5011 class and 2900 both had BoxPok wheels, at least as built.
The early Universal wheels had a large blank area around the crank pin and smaller holes, but later Universal wheels look generally similar to later Baldwin Disc wheels, but with rather fewer larger holes.
I should like to hear from anyone who can confirm my ideas about these late Baldwin Disc Wheels.
Please, help me to find sectional views of different types of driving wheel centers.
Valeriy Please, help me to find sectional views of different types of driving wheel centers. Valeriy.
I think the best place to look would be one of the Simmons Boardman "Locomotive Cyclopedias" of the 1930s and 1940s. Kalmbach reprinted the 1942 Cyclopedia some years ago. One of these might appear in Amazon or in EBay.
To bring up an earlier point, I note that the large German Passenger locomotives of class 01 and 03 had webbing around the spokes near the crank pin, but not on the remaining spokes. But these would date back to 1925.
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