Hi Everyone! I have some questions about Lehigh Valley Passenger Service to NY/NJ. I know that some Lehigh Valley trains terminated at the CNJ Terminal in Jersey City, NJ. I also know that at least some LV trains went into Penn Station, NY. Did LV service go to both places at the same period of time? Was service to Jersey City replaced with service to Penn Station, NY?
I believe that LV trains going to Penn Station picked up PRR electric locomotives at NK tower in Newark, NJ? In serving Jersey City where did LV connect with CNJ? Was that at Bound Brook, NJ? Thank you in advance to all who may be able to answer some of my questions.
Additional complication: there's a pic of the westward Asa Packer (?) in Newark Penn Station with the LV 4-6-2 already on it (circa 1939?). One wonders: did it originate there? If so, how did the equipment get there?
It seems LV did have its own passenger station in Jersey City, immediately north of the CNJ terminal. I'll see what the book says about when they used it; that motor from South Plainfield (?) always? went there.
You remember the LV originally ran to Perth Amboy, so their passenger trains originally got on the PRR at Metuchen and ran to PRR Jersey City. Around 1888 LV extended its main line toward Jersey City and shifted its passenger trains to CNJ Jersey City, initially (at least) via a connection at Roselle. Then in 1918 USRA shifted LV trains to NY Penn.
But that local continued to run all-LV to Jersey City until 1948 or whenever it was discontinued, and when the Asa Packer started in 1939 it ran PRR to Newark Penn and onward thru Journal Sq to the connection with the National Docks and worked its way over to LV Jersey City. That's what the book says (it also says the Asa Packer moved to NY Penn in 9/40) but far as we can tell from the 9/39 PRR employee timetable the Asa Packer then terminated at Newark Penn.
At some point LV moved from the CRNJ Jersey City terminal to the PRR Exchange Place terminal for their local trains that did not go to Penn Station. The power was then serviced by the PRR and not the CRNJ. And they operated from Newark to Exchange Place as extras, not as scheduled trains, but did carry passengers. (Where would the Asa Paker's locomotive be serviced in Newark, anyway?) Westbound, they were scheduled in the PRR emplyees timetables. And having ridden the LV several times, I remember the engine change point as being at the tower and track where NJT trains to Raritan currently leave the main line corridor and where the RDC Crusader and Wall Street remenant schedules to and from Reading Terminal via Bound Brook and West Trenton and Jenkintown left the main line. In addition to GG-1's in used on LV trains to and from Penn Station and Sunnyside Yard, the single R-1 4-8-4 was often used in this service. In fact, the Aldein Plan specifically used a stretch of LV main and one suburban passenger station to connect the CRNJ to the PRR.
When the Wall Street and the Crusader RDC's left Newark, the PRR public address train announcer did not announce the last stop as "Philadelphia", but "Reading Temrinal."
timzAround 1888 LV extended its main line toward Jersey City and shifted its passenger trains to CNJ Jersey City, initially (at least) via a connection at Roselle.
Then in 1918 LV started running to NY Penn, except for the trains I mentioned above. No evidence that LV ever ran to Exchange Place after 1913.
Edit: I was wrong about that-- far as we can tell from the Guides LV locals to Flemington/Easton ran out of PRR Exchange Place until 1938. Incidentally, they're not shown stpping at PRR Newark-- just LV's own Newark station.
Further edit. it seems LV moved from PRR Jersey City to CNJ Jersey City in 1892, then back again in 1893.
SEND LEHIGH TRAINS TO NEW STATIONS
Passenger Traffic to Reach New York by Pennsylvania's Gateways
McAdoo Orders Changes
Through Western Trains Will Use Pennsylvania's Tunnels and Locals Will Enter Jersey City Station
Special to The New York Times
Passengers from downtown New York for trains leaving the Pennsylvania uptown station will use the Hudson & Manhattan trains connecting at Manhattan Transfer.
Hudson & Manhattan trains and the Pennsylvania ferry service also will be used by passengers for the Lehigh Valley trains leaving from the Jersey City station of the Pennsylvania.
Discussing Director General McAdoo's order, railroad officials last night said it was another step in his program to co-ordinate and centralize railroad traffic. Under the new routing, they said, Lehigh Valley passengers, by virtue of the Pennsylvania tunnels, would be enabled to arrive directly in this city, without the inconvenience of the ferry trip.
It was said that the trains scheduled to arrive in the Pennsylvania Station in New York City included all of the through trains from the West - five incoming and five outgoing. The six trains diverted to the Pennsylvania station in Jersey City are all locals. In addition to concentrating New York's inbound traffic, the new arrangement, it was said, would permit greater utilization of the Communipaw terminal for Government business.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D02E4D81439E13ABC4852DFBF668383609EDE
http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/nj/nj0900/nj0939/photos/112354pv.jpg
NK Tower
http://books.google.com/books?id=BfbYjCQvLvcC&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=&f=true
Again, before and during WWII, any and all LV passenger trains showing Newark, Penn Sta., as their terminal, actually did continue to and from PRR Exchange Place.
daveklepperall LV passenger trains showing Newark, Penn Sta., as their terminal, actually did continue to and from PRR Exchange Place.
Offhand I'm guessing the only timetables that showed any LV trains terminating at Newark were the PRR employee timetables. The Guide showed the Asa Packer running out of "Communipaw", which apparently means LV's Jersey City terminal.
There's a neat old map of Jersey City that shows a Communipaw Station on Communipaw Ave., inland near a Lehigh Valley coach yard. Zoom in on the top right corner of Plate 47, which the link is set to. The map index page shows the entire city. Plate 48 shows the CNJ station. Plate 10 shows the PRR station. Plate 11 shows Erie and DL&W.
http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/JCplat_book/Plate47/index.htm
That's a CNJ station. It seems the LV Communipaw station was out near the river (tho it's not labelled on Plate 48) so passengers could walk over to the CNJ ferry.
One puzzle: in 1939 the Asa Packer made two round trips a day Jersey City to Mauch Chunk; the two westward trips were scheduled to leave Newark Penn 50 minutes after leaving Jersey City, but the eastward trains arrived JC 27 or 30 minutes after leaving Newark. Maybe the westward train ran via National Jct, requiring a second backup move, unlike the eastward train?
The Asa Packer probably was timed to leave Jersey City soon after the CNJ ferry arrived, and to be early at Newark so as to display their streamlined train while waiting for the Hudson & Manhattan.
Items of PRR Chronology,,,
July 30, 1938 - LV local makes last run between PRR's Exchange Place Station and Flemington; last LV train to use Exchange Place.
Aug. 1, 1938 - PRR cancels LVRR trackage rights into Exchange Place Station and use of Waldo Yard. LV's Flemington commuter train begins operating to LV's Johnston Ave. Yard in Jersey City adjoining CNJ ferry.
Feb. 20, 1939 - LV inaugurates Asa Packer, a "streamstyled" heavyweight train between Johnston Ave., Jersey City and Mauch Chunk; train operates via Journal Square and National Docks branch with a backup move on ramp to Johnston Ave. line; is serviced at PRR Waldo Yard.
Timetable says Jersey City is a mile from New York. Second link is 1927 photo of Johnston Ave.
http://www.lvrr.com/index.php?album=%2FM-LVRR%201947%20Time%20Table%2F&image=page01-02.jpg
http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1630054&t=w
I stand corrected on Exchange Place, but I know perfectly well that the PRR would not allow the LV to ocuppy track space at Newark any more than normal for a train to load passengers, so there must be another explanaition than "display."
Incidentally, I have been asked a question about the NS article on Penn Station: "But sure ly there must have been much more traffic at Penn Station (NY) during WWII than during 1967? How did they handle it?" The answer is not really. During WWII MOST corrirdor and Perth Amboy mu computer trains and most Long Branch steam-hauled trains ran right through to Excchange Place during rush hours and not to Penn Station, which handled mostly long distance PRR trains during rush hours. Today, everything goes to Penn except for a few trains Long Branch trains to Hoboken.
I had always assumed that the LV trains going on the PRR tracks from Harrison to Journal Square ended up at Exchange Place, and I was wrong. Now these tracks are bereft of overhead catenary and are only used by PATH.
Hi guys, new here and I know I am late to the party, but I was told about this thread and that I might provide some assistance. I am the author of the book "The Lehigh Valley RR Across NJ" referenced above in the link to Google Books about NK tower. Since I am modeling the Jersey City Terminal, I have done a lot of research on the area and the operations. I don't know everything, but please feel free to ask a question if you haven't already found the answer, I love to talk about the LV whenever I get the chance to!
Thanks,
Ralph Heiss
S. Plainfield, NJ
i'll just stick my 2 cents worth in here. once in in 1955 or 56 i was boarding a pennsy train at penn sta to go to south amboy (to photograph K-4's) when what should slide in on the other side of the platform but an LV train - powered by an O1a 4-4-4 boxcab! i thought they'd all been scrapped by then. no photo but vivid memories. -big duke
Are you absolutely sure in was not P-5 boxcab? The O-1's were 2-B-2, s (4-4-4's) and the P-5's were 2-C-2's (4-6-4's).
Bigduke is right, the O-1's spent almost their entire service lives handling LV trains between Penn Station and Newark. They were too light for almost anything else and usually worked in pairs.
While under the U.S. Railroad Administration, in 1918, the Lehigh Valley was ordered by General McAdoo to start running passenger trains into Penn Station.
B&O was ordered to run into Penn Station at the same time with 4 trains a day each way. I believe the B&O operation was terminated in 1926.
Solomon While under the U.S. Railroad Administration, in 1918, the Lehigh Valley was ordered by General McAdoo to start running passenger trains into Penn Station.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I just came across this thread, and may be able to offer some observations. During 1959, I had an office in the 1st National Bank Building across from the PRR Exchange Place Terminal (Plat #11 of the Rutgers plat). I do not recall any LV trains coming into Exchange Place. All but one were PRR MUs, and the other was a train from the shore pulled by a Baldwin Shark. One of the the cars was the "Jersey Shore Commuter Club." The tracks running through the streets were served by steeple-cab rubber-tired locomotives, that could drive on the streets around box cars serving the Colgate plant.. The curves in the streets were extremely sharp, with occasional derailments.
I was with a law firm whose predecessor had been counsel for the Hudson & Manhattan RR Co., which built what is now the PATH. If memory serves me correctly, one could buy tickets which covered an H&M trip to Newark and the trip on the regular train.
The train you saw with a Baldwin Shark was "The Broker", a thorugh train from Bay Head Junction that did not change to GG1 power at South Amboy. Indeed, it was the fastest train on the NY&LB, and also was the last passenger train to the Jersey Shore powered by steam. The Baldwin Sharks were used on the NY&LB from the time they replaced steam in 1957 buntil the main line east-west PRR train offs, such as the Steel City and the Broadway name transferred to the General made EMD power available, putting the Baldwins into retirement. One train in in the moring and one out in the evening. It was K4-powered until the day before the last day of K4's on the NY&LB.
There had been LV trains to Jersey City earlier, but I am unsure if they actually continuied to use the PRR station after WWII, although they did come in on the line used by both PRR (Broker and mu's) an the H&M, which had catenary and third rail. They may have used the CNJ station. During WWII only three LV trains came to Penn Station, the Black Diamond, the Maple Leaf, and the Asa Packer. The others went to Jersey City and did not change to GG1 power at Hunter Tower. At one time they did use Exchange Place, the PRR station.
I have seen pictures of LV steam entering Newark Penn from the east I believe after WWII...at any rate they did go to Exchange PLace to the end of LV commuter services.
And, ahhhhh! The Broker. I remember seeing it often pulled by K4's and Sharks...from the highways west of Union HIll and from the windows of parallel DL&W MU's. In fact Lackawanna engineers would often "pace" the Broker across The Meadows to be the first to hit the opposite curves at Harrison despite bulliten orders and other official admonishions not to; PRR had the same problem. Still, whether K4 or Baldwin Shark, sitting aboard a Lackawanna train and and for about 5 or 6 miles, watching the progress of the Broker less than a half mile away, was one of the fun exeriences for railfan and non railfans alike--sorta made for an intersting five minutes in an otherwise dull routine commute.
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henry6they did go to Exchange PLace to the end of LV commuter services.
They definitely did come in on the PRR line to Exchange Place, but I think they used some connecting track and actually terminated at the Jersey Central Station, why I don't know. I did not ride the service. May be someone with Offical Guides of the WWII period or LV timetables can answer with authority. Also, of interest, were their engines continiued to be service at the PRR facility or at the CNJ's?
On April 26, 1958 the Lehigh Valley Railroad discontinued operation of its train #25 and #26, "The Asa Packer," between New York and Lehigton, Pa. However I cannot find any indication that this discontinuance was authorized by the Interstate Commerce Commission. I am wondering if this train was combined with the #9, "The Black Diamond."
I sort of conclude this since up to the time of its discontinuance the "Asa Packer" left New York at 7:55 a.m. and the "Black Diamond" left New York at 10:55 a.m. The next timetable of April 27, 1958, two days after the "Asa Packer" was removed, shows the "Black Diamond" now leaving Penn Station at 8:40 a.m.
Anyone have more definite information?
The Asa Packer commenced running out of Penn Station on Jan. 12, 1942. Prior to that it terminated and originated at Newark.
Solomon The Asa Packer commenced running out of Penn Station on Jan. 12, 1942. Prior to that it terminated and originated at Newark.
I'm new to these forums and stumbled on this thread. Anyway, there were questions earlier hereabout "back-ups" to get to or from the LV Johnston Ave terminal by the waterfront from or to Newark Penn Station, etc.
Leaving from the LV terminal, paralleling Johnston St heading compass west, the LV mainline eventually used to bear left to cross Johnston ave at grade, then heading south west, on the north west side of the parallel CNJ, initially, before crossing back over the CNJ ON bridge around Bayview Ave. To get on the National Docks that way, you would have to go all the way back to Constable Jct (between the LV main and National Docks), near the foot of the Greenville Bridge, about a 3 mile trip, where you would then reverse to get on the ND to go to Journal Square. One change of direction.
However, coming out of the terminal, you could bear right off the main before crossing Johnston Ave, to go northeast into the LV West Yard, parallel to the National Docks and on the south east side of it. (I think the Apollo van trains of the 1960s and the early 70's were loaded/unloaded there). There was a lead from the West yard to the National Docks heading timetable west (compass southwest). So a passenger train could pull into the yard, then reverse to do the climb up onto the ND (which was elevated all along that section), and then reverse to go Journal Square. 2 changes of direction, but about 5 miles less total distance than the first option. The West Yard option sounds much more likely to me!
Regarding timetables, for LV trains to NY Penn I have seen, in the early days (1920s, I'm sorry, I can't find the link now) in addition times for Jersey city (Exchange Place) and Hudson terminal were listed (and Manhattan transfer). Although it didn't say so, I am 99.9% sure you would change at Manhattan Transfer and take the H&M (Hudson Tubes, which were underground after Journal Square) to Hudson Terminal - future PATH). Coming the other way, the train left Exchange Place only 3 minutes after leaving Hudson terminal (future WTC stop), so clearly passengers weren't changing trains there.
Also of note, these trains stopped at the LV Newark station (Meeker Ave?), but not Newark Penn station, since there was no reason to - to get to Hudson terminal (lower manhattan) you changed at Manhattan Transfer - which was a short distance east of the current Harrison).
In later days (1950s) it's the same, but you would change at Newark Penn Station to get on/off the H&M, not Manhattan Transfer since it no longer existed, and H&M trains by then were re-routed to end at Newark Penn Station for that reason). THere was no longer a stop shown for the LV Newark station - probably for most people Newark Penn was much more convenient and had all the local connections (Newark subway, busses...)
1946 LV Long Distance train timetable : http://www.anthraciterailroads.org/lvrr/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/TimeTable.pdf
1959 LV Long Distance: http://streamlinermemories.info/Eastern/LV58TT.pdf
Does anyone have a link for a local timetable on-line? (Or do I have to go fishing for a National Guide)?
Thanks, JS
PS - who has a link to a timetable showing LOCALs (not long-distance trains) ending at Newark
10 cents in the turnstile got you anywhere on the H&M system up to Journal Square. Beyond Journal Square a ticket was necessary, /i recall the fare to Newark as 17 cents, but don't remember if that was children's half-fare or the regular fare.
Crews did not change at JQ. Half PRR amd half H&M. Half the red Gibbs-desogned MP48es were lettered for the H&M and Half for the PRR and were mixed. All had PRR cab signals. The other H&M cars were desugbed by Stillwell and were dark brown, almost black. They could not mu witih the MP48s.
The red Newark cars did carry local passengers SQ - Hudson Terminal (WTC).
Tickets to anywhere in the USA were sold at the Hudson Terminal ticket office.
Including Pullman accomodations.
Dave, by the time I got to the Hudson Tubes (about 1970) what I remember were the PA-1s or PA-2s, the MP38's were gone I think.
I did find an LV schedule with local and long distance service from 1922. http://raildata.railfan.net/lv/homelv.html
4 of the 5 inbound locals stopped at LV Newark Station (Meeker Ave), and then went to Exchange Place. No stops listed for Manhattan Transfer (or Journal Square for that matter). So if you wanted to go to Hudson Terminal you switched at Exchange Place. Arrival at Hudson Terminal was 8 minutes after arrival at Exchange place - 5 min for the transfer and 3 min for the ride. And if you wanted to go uptown you took the tubes from Exchange Place to the H&M station at 33th St & 6th Ave, like Pennsy local riders would have done.
[THe 5th local stopped at Exchange place like the long-distance trains, and you changed there for Exchange place and Hudson terminal. The consist went on to Penn Station NY I suppose.]
I'm still looking for a timetable for locals after they stopped going to Exchange place and went to Johnston Ave terminal instead (after Aug. 1 1938 according to the earlier post above, and before the end of local NJ service, which I guess was in the 1950's. )
THanks, JS
PS. I was a little mixed up on my compass directions earlier. Corrections to one paragraph from my previous post below in CAPS:
However, coming out of the terminal, you could bear right off the main before crossing Johnston Ave, to go SLIGHTLY WEST OF NORTH (LET'S CALL IT NORTH) into the LV West Yard, parallel to the National Docks and on the EAST side of it. (I think the Apollo van trains of the 1960s and the early 70's were loaded/unloaded there). There was a lead from the West yard to the National Docks heading timetable west (compass SOUTH). So a passenger train could pull into the yard, then reverse to do the climb up onto the ND (which was elevated all along that section), and then reverse to go Journal Square.
Pumpers4 of the 5 inbound locals stopped at LV Newark Station (Meeker Ave), and then went to Exchange Place.
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