Northern Pacific Business Cars.

[sarges]

G'day.I'm developing quite an interest in the Northern Pacific(modelleing as well) and i have got myself a Kato model of Yellowstone business car. My questions are-what business cars did the N.P. have(this model portrays a corrugated side car i assume budd design,but all i have ever come across apart from heavyweights is slab sided streamliners like on the North Coast Limited.I have not seen any photos etc of corrugated side cars or business cars for that matter,of the N.P.)

What did the interior of the business cars look like,must have been very classy-and did they just put these cars on the end of a regular revenue North Coast Limited or Mainstreeter,or did they run a special 'Business Car Train' for whoever was aboard.

Any info on any aspect of this would be great,as i know very little about this area of railroading. Thanks. Regards,sarges.

[passengerfan]

The three most modern business cars I recall on the NP were the CLARK FORK RIVER, YAKIMA RIVER and YELLOWSTONE RIVER built by Pullman Standard and delivered April, 1955. All were modern cars with open platforms. I do not recall seeing them on the rear of the North Coast Limited until after the NP observations were retired in 1967 I may be wrong I just don't ever remember seeing them operated behind the NCL Observations. I do recall seeing them on the rear of the Mainstreeter during this period of time though. I grew up east of Auburn where the NP mainline bisecked family property so seeing NP trains was almost a constant.The three cars CLARK FORK RIVER, YAKIMA RIVER and YELLOWSTONE RIVER were all smooth side cars with modern interiors. Ibelieve that after the BNSF merger these three cars received fluted stainless sides for continued use in the BNSF business car fleet. Managed to sneak a peak inside one of the cars from the open platform one time when at King St. Station Seattle. I probably have some interior car plans of the three cars but don't remember quite where to put my hands on them right now will have to do some looking.

Al - in - Stockton 

[Texas Zepher]

sarges

I'm developing quite an interest in the Northern Pacific ... and i have got myself a Kato model of Yellowstone business car.

You didn't mention what scale you are talking about here, but the HO scale one is the model of a CB&Q prototype.  I thought the paint on the NP version was really bad.  The light green is too yellow and the dark green not dark enough.

My questions are-what business cars did the N.P. have.

The NP had many business cars.  Most were rebuilt from old Pullman's  In the 1950's most carried "river" names until the whole fleet was converted from names to numbers.

The Yellowstone was a heavyweight originally built by Pullman in 1924 as business car #1 and was assigned to the president.  It was renamed in 1954 to the "Green River" when the new streamlined business cars were received (see below).

Two of the other heavyweights were the "Madison River" and Gallatin River".  The Gallatin River was streamlined in the late 1940s or early 50s.  It carried a black roof instead of the normal dark green of the Loewy scheme. 

Three streamlined business cars were purchased from Pullman standard in 1955.  They  were named  "Yellowstone River", "Clark Fork River", and "Yakima River".  The cost of $330,000 made them the most expensive passenger cars the NP ever purchased.  They had 4 bedrooms that could be reconfigured small or large to meet the immediate need. 

What did the interior of the business cars look like,

The Green river had two staterooms, a compartment, a secretary's room and porter quarters, a kitchen, dining room, observation room and two shower baths.

did they just put these cars on the end of a regular revenue North Coast Limited or Mainstreeter,or did they run a special 'Business Car Train' for whoever was aboard.

Yes, they did all of the above.

[sarges]

G'day. My business car is in HO Scale. And yes the paint job is really dodgy! Cheers for all the other info,quite interesting. I think i heard somewhere that CB&Q was owned or controlled somewhat by N.P. and i think G.N..Not to sure about all that.(maybe thats why Kato decided to paint,as you pointed out a CB&Q prototype,in N.P. colours!!)  Regards,   Sarge.

[sarges]

Cheers-interesting thankyou.I reckon it would have been great to have N.P. crossing the family property-although i'm sure i'm looking at that with a misty eyed nostalgia-was probably noisey (if it was close to your house) and a pain sometimes! Thanks again.   Sarge.

[wjstix]

Until the mid-sixties the NP never put business cars at the end of the NCL or the Mainstreeter, because they didn't want to interfere with the passenger's enjoyment of the regular observation car. If a business car was going somewhere it would normally go on a lesser train or put up towards the front of the train. In the last years passenger service lost it's priority status and business cars became much more common on even the rear of the NCL. In the last years I guess even lower-ranking officials wanted to put their business car on the end of the NCL so they could feel like bigshots.

[Texas Zepher]

sarges

I think i heard somewhere that CB&Q was owned or controlled somewhat by N.P. and i think G.N..Not to sure about all that.

In 1901 the GN and NP purchased almost all the stock in the CB&Q.  It was something like 49% each.  The CB&Q kept the GN and NP afloat during the depression with large dividend payments.  The CB&Q is one of the few railroads that never went bankrupt and paid a dividend every year.

In turn the CB&Q owned the Colorado & Southern and the Fort Worth & Denver, among others.  At one time they contolled the Colorado Midland.  Now there is an intersting "what if".  What if the CB&Q had broken out west of the Rocky Mountains?

[wjstix]

Yes, the Northern Pacific and Great Northern only went as far east as St.Paul MN so they needed a way to reach Chicago, so together they bought the Burlington - largely because of it's excellent mainline trackwork from what I understand. NP and GN trains coming from the west would swing around the wye and back into St.Paul Union Depot, the NP or GN power would be cut off, and a Burlington engine (or diesel lash-up) would be coupled up to take the train to Chicago.

I live near the old Burlington (now BNSF) mainline in Minnesota - there's only about 15 miles from St.Paul until it crosses over into Wisconsin, and most of the way it parallels the old Milwaukee Road (now CP) mainline by only a few yards. Fun to think of what used to run there. For example, since the Burlington bought diesels long before NP or GN, you could see a heavyweight train of Pullman Green GN cars like the Empire Builder being pulled by a pair of shiny silver Burlington E-units.

BTW NP-GN had a similar ownership arrangement on the west end, with the Spokane Portland and Seattle Ry.

[passengerfan]

sarges

Cheers-interesting thankyou.I reckon it would have been great to have N.P. crossing the family property-although i'm sure i'm looking at that with a misty eyed nostalgia-was probably noisey (if it was close to your house) and a pain sometimes! Thanks again.   Sarge.

Actually we could hardly hear the trains as they went through a cut on our property. We kept the cattle on the far side (north) as they actually made more noise especially in the winter when waiting for there feed. I guess after awhile we became immune to the sound of trains and paid very little attention. There was one derailment of a westbound freight on our property and they restored the pasture and everything after the cleanup which did not take very long. One interesting side to the derailment was my mother got a brand new refrigerator. One of the wrecked cars was loaded with new refrigerators and the cleanup crew asked if she needed a new refrigerator. They took our old refrigerator down by the cleanup site and ran over it with a bulldozer. I know she was always hoping it would happen again only the next time she hoped it would be new stoves.

Today I live about five blocks from the UP ex SP and WP mainline through town and BNSF and Amtrak also use the tracks and I hear them much more blowing for the numerous crossings. I guess as a kid it did not pay as much attention as I probably should have although on the nice summer days it was always great to sit at the top of the cut and wave at the crews. They always returned our waves.

Al - in - Stockton

[csmith9474]

The below link has several pics of the NP biz cars (the entire site is a great resource):

http://www.trainweb.org/passengercars/Indices/BC7.htm

[kog1027]

Texas Zepher

sarges

I think i heard somewhere that CB&Q was owned or controlled somewhat by N.P. and i think G.N..Not to sure about all that.

In 1901 the GN and NP purchased almost all the stock in the CB&Q.  It was something like 49% each.  The CB&Q kept the GN and NP afloat during the depression with large dividend payments.  The CB&Q is one of the few railroads that never went bankrupt and paid a dividend every year.

In turn the CB&Q owned the Colorado & Southern and the Fort Worth & Denver, among others.  At one time they contolled the Colorado Midland.  Now there is an intersting "what if".  What if the CB&Q had broken out west of the Rocky Mountains?

 

If I Recall Correctly, Richard Overton's history of the Burlington Route relates that when the CB&Q first reached Denver the celebrating Board of Directors voted to change the company's name to Chicago, Burlington, Quincy & Pacific.  This name change lasted for the following two days of the weekend and on Monday the now sober Board voted to restore the Chicago Burlington & Quincy name.

Mark Gosdin