Interline sleeping cars

[MP173]

I am reading Harry Stegmaier's excellent book  Baltimore and Ohio Passenger Service, 1945-1971 Volume 1 The Route of the National Limited.

Stegmaier discusses the advent of interlin passenger cars, in this case on the National Limited from NYC/Washington to the Southwest - Mopac, Frisco, MKT.  We had briefly discussed this on the thread regarding Baltimore to Wichita Falls, Tx travel.

Did any forum members have experience with any type of interline sleeper service?

How was the overall service on these cars?  Obviously, the interstate system and jet travel curtailed long distance sleeper service, but there would have been a brief period of time, perhaps 1948 thru early 1960's in which this service was feasible.

Any comments on the service.  It seems like a fascinating concept. 

In Chicago was the transfer limited to only those railroads which shared a common terminal such as Union Station, or were there actual transfers of the cars between stations?  If so, those would have been interesting movements.

ed

[Deggesty]

MP173

In Chicago was the transfer limited to only those railroads which shared a common terminal such as Union Station, or were there actual transfers of the cars between stations?  If so, those would have been interesting movements.

Oh, yes, there were many transfer movements between various stations:

Both Union (PRR) and LaSalle Street (NYC) to/from the C&NW station.

Union (PRR), LaSalle Street (NYC), & Grand Central (B&O) to/from Dearborn Street (SFe)

LaSalle Street (NYC) to/from Union (CB&Q) I do not remember for certain if the Golden State had through cars to/from PRR, but if it did, there was another transfer between these two stations.

As I recall, there was only one interchange that did not involve a station change--PRR to CB&Q, unless the Golden State had through cars NYC-LA, then the NYC-RI interchange was simple

It was much simpler in St. Louis.

Johnny

[wjstix]

Not sure if I understand your question...before WW2, when Pullman owned and operated the cars themselves, Pullman cars were often moved from one city to another over several different railroads. In 1900 IIRC you could go from Minneapolis MN to Los Angeles via Pullman without changing cars, even though you'd be on several railroads while en route. If anything, this sort of thing became less common after the Pullman breakup in 1948.  

[Deggesty]

wjstix

Not sure if I understand your question...before WW2, when Pullman owned and operated the cars themselves, Pullman cars were often moved from one city to another over several different railroads. In 1900 IIRC you could go from Minneapolis MN to Los Angeles via Pullman without changing cars, even though you'd be on several railroads while en route. If anything, this sort of thing became less common after the Pullman breakup in 1948.  

I  don't think that the separation of the Pullman manufacturing and sleeper operation was the cause of the reduction in the number of interline sleepers; we need to remember that fewer and fewer people were traveling by train, and, as fewer traveled first class, it became truly uneconomical to operate this line and that line. In 1950, you could still travel between Minneapolis and Los Angeles in a through car (C&NW Twin Cities-Omaha and UP Omaha-LA).

Further notes on station to station moves of cars and trains:

In Buffalo, the Hoboken-Detroit cars were moved between the Lackawanna station and the Central Terminal. In Atlanta, the entire train that came in on the L&N or NC&StL and left on the CoG was moved from the Union Station to the Terminal station (and vice-versa). Most of the interline transfer of cars and trains was done in the same station, so confusion on the part of the passengers was reduced.

One interesting transfer was that in use in New Orleans on the Washington-Sunset Route. I do not know just how long this was in effect, but I do know that in 1948 if you were traveling this route, you had to get off the Piedmont Limited (wb) or the Sunset Limited (eb), and make your way from the Terminal Station to the Union Station (wb) or from the Union Station to the Terminal Station (eb) where you would find a fresh car with the same accommodation ready for you, complete with your belongings in the same numbered space that you occupied into New Orleans. After spending a few hours in the Crescent City, you would leave on the Sunset Limited (wb) or the Crescent (eb).

Johnny

[MP173]

What was sorta cool about the Pullman and sleeper arrangements, particularly on shorter overnight travels, such as Chicago-St. Louis, or Louisville - St. Louis, one could board the train say at 8pm and use the sleeping accomodations, even tho the car wasnt picked up by the train until a later hour(or possibly left).

To me, that seems like it would have been a great way to travel overnight.

ed

[wjstix]

MP173

What was sorta cool about the Pullman and sleeper arrangements, particularly on shorter overnight travels, such as Chicago-St. Louis, or Louisville - St. Louis, one could board the train say at 8pm and use the sleeping accomodations, even tho the car wasnt picked up by the train until a later hour(or possibly left).

To me, that seems like it would have been a great way to travel overnight.

ed

Vice-versa too, in some situations the train arrived in a destination city during the night and the Pullman cars would be put on a track in the station and left there while the people were asleep. They didn't have to be off the car til I think 8 or 9 a.m so they didn't have to get up right away.

[daveklepper]

I rode sleepers on the Montreal Limited (NYC-D&H), Montrealer-Washingtonian (PRR-NYNH&H-B&M-CV-CN), Piedmont LImited (SR-A&WP, WP&A. LN), California Zephyr (WP-D&RGW-CB&Q), City of Los Angeles (UP-CMSTP&P), City of San Francisco (SP-UP-CMSTP&P), State of Maine (NH-B&M), Sheveport-St Louis (KCS-MP). NYC-Norfolk (PRR-RF&P-N&W), all the NY-Florida Streamliners (PRR-RF&P-ACL-or-SAL-or-SCL), Winnipeg-St. Paul (CN-GN), Kansas City Florida Special   Frisco-SR?  and others, and there was no difference in service between any of these trips and trips on a single railroad.   Trips on a single railroad also involved transfers of the car or cars from one train to another, and many of the interline trips, like the Florida streamliners and the Cal Zephyr involved the whole train. 

[aricat]

In the 1950's I made a number of trips between Minneapolis and Harrisburg Pennsylvania. These were done either at Christmas time or in the summer. There was a very tight connection between the Burlington's Morning Zephyr and both the Trailblazer and Broadway Limited in Chicago.This didn't change when the Trailblazer was dropped and the connection was the General. We would take either the North Coast Limited or the Empire Builder to Chicago because it offered a better connection.I have heard that people who rode Pullman Sleepers on other Trains like the 20TH Century Limited and the Capitol Limited used the North Coast and Builder also. You would have to reserve seats on both these trains though.Burlington would handle the trains from St Paul to Chicago. The only thing I ever noticed was the change of crews in St Paul. Burlington did operate their own trains into Minneapolis using GN trackage between the two cities. Burlingon seemed to give priority to both the Builder and North Coast over the Zephyr. I once was on the Morning Zephyr and we were stopped for a red signal while the late running North Coast Limited passed.

I also have a question about the James Whitcomb Riley. I was under the impression that NYC began to operate their own sleepers in 1959, yet that train continued to have its sleepers operated by Pullman ?

[Deggesty]

aricat

I also have a question about the James Whitcomb Riley. I was under the impression that NYC began to operate their own sleepers in 1959, yet that train continued to have its sleepers operated by Pullman ?

Remember that the Riley was a day train--which carried sleepers to Chicago brought into Cincinnati by the C&O and the Southern (these sleepers were carried back to Cincinnati on other trains). These lines were not New York Central lines, but were either C&O or Southern, which did not operate sleepers until 1/1/1969. So, Pullman operated them.

Johnny

[MP173]

Good info.  Dave, that was quite a routing (5 railroads) to Montreal.

I have never been interested in Pullman or sleeper service...well perhaps a bit, but not much.

What was Pullman's business model?  Did they collect all $$$ and pay the railroads a flat fee for handling the cars?  Or did they charge the railroads for the service?

ed

[wjstix]

I think a key thing in understanding how it worked is understanding that you had to have two tickets, one to ride the train which would normally be collected by the train conductor, and one for your sleeping car berth (or roomette etc.) which would be collected by the Pullman conductor. The railroad owned the train, Pullman owned the sleeping car. Sleeping car customers = "first class" customers, everyone else were "coach".

Pullman's money came from providing the sleeping car service to the traveller, the railroad's money came from the traveller wanting to ride their train at least in part because it offered Pullman sleeping car service. Pullman offered other services too...a railroad could have a train with Pullman owned and operated dining cars, parlor cars, and observation cars (both with sleeping compartments and without). Generally railroads chose to provide their own dining car service - there was good money in that, just like today many sports teams break even on ticket sales and make a profit on concessions.

For example, the heavyweight 20th Century Limited was advertised by the New York Central as an "all first class - all Pullman train". Only the dining car was a New York Central car. The other 12-13 cars, including the baggage-smoker combine, were Pullman cars. I read that the number of people sleeping in Pullman cars on the New York Central alone each night back then would be about the same as a large hotel would have in New York or Chicago.

A railroad could contract with Pullman to provide sleeping car service on their railroad, but they had to verify that the line would have at least I think 12 passengers for each car per night. So even a smaller railroad might be able to have a train with one Pullman car in it.

Pullman 100 years ago was one of the largest, most powerful companies in America, not just from owning and operating Pullman cars, but from building passenger cars for themselves and for railroads, and for building freight cars. BTW after George Pullman died their president was Robert Todd Lincoln, Abe's son.

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

I rode sleepers on the Montreal Limited (NYC-D&H), Montrealer-Washingtonian (PRR-NYNH&H-B&M-CV-CN), Piedmont LImited (SR-A&WP, WP&A. LN),

Dave, what's the WP&A? do you mean the WRA (Western Railway of Alabama, which ran from West Point, Ga., to Selma, Ala.? Incidentally, I think that you had one coupon in your rail ticket that took you from Atlanta to Montgomery; it would have read WPRte, for West Point Route. At least, when I rode between Atlanta and New Orleans in the sixties, there was only one coupon--and one train crew took the train all the way over the WPRte. I do not know if the engine crew changed at West Point or not.

In 1968, I rode the George Washington from Louisville to Richmond, and I had to change cars in Huntington, and the next year I rode the George from Washington to Cincinnati, and I had to change cars in Charlottesville (at least the changes were made at a decent hour). As I recall, I had a separate sleeper coupon, but only one coupon in the rail ticket, for each leg, but only one coupon in the rail ticket for each trip.

Johnny

[daveklepper]

I meant the Western Railrway of Alabama, which I mistakenly remembered as the West Pont and Alabama.   Your memory must govern regarding the tickets on my Piedmont Limited trip.  I know the rail portion was a multi-coupon ticket, but don't recall the number of coupons.

[passengerfan]

I had the opportunity to interline once.I ws being transferred from Boston to San Diego and since there was no direct interline from Boston to the Super Chief i traveled to New York first and travelled on the 20th Century Limited and the sleeper i rode was a 4 cpt 4 dbr 2 drawing room car and got one of the Bedrooms for roomette price. t was a Santa Fe car all the way from Grand Central to LAUPT. never forgot the trip and made a cross platform change of trains in LA to a waiting San Diegan.

Al - in - Stockton