I know some railroads used water pans to pick up water on the fly. Which RR's used them and were they sucessful? Who was responsible for filling the pans? What was the mechanism used by the fireman to operate the pickup? I can't see them being used in cold climates.
I believe a lot of the big roads had such pans. PRR and NYC especially in the East...B&O probably, maybe NH and RDG, too. They were automatically filled after train scooped. The fireman or engineer, depending on railroad and engine, would drop the scoop at a designated post and lift it at the next designated post, hopefully in time to catch all the available water going in and so as not to have the pan scoop ripped off on the way out. Gosh I wish I could have seen that operation!!
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New York Central used them. At least in the late 40's early 50's. As a boy my father and I would visit Wayneport, in upstate NY and watch coaling operations along with locomotives take on water on the fly. As I remember it created quite a spray from beneath the engine/tender. It was a year round operation, but I don't know how they kept the water from freezing, probably steam heated somehow. It must have been successful on the NYC for they used it for years. I believe the engine had a mechanical operated scoop that would be dropped by the fireman forcing water into the tender by the sheer speed of the locomotive. The water pan was very long. --- signed: USCGRR
I'm guessing NY Central and PRR between them had at least 80%, probably 90% of the US total of track pans. B&O had one (?) set between Phila and Washington, RDG had one or two, CNJ had one (?)... that might be all.
The B&O had track pans at Stanton DE. At least up until the late 1960s a small building (pump house?) and some paving blocks were visible at the site. IINM they also had pans some place between Baltimore and the Susquehanna River and there was another set of pans someplace up on the Reading. This was on the "Royal Blue Line" between Washington and Jersey City on the B&O RDG CNJ.
As I understand it, the pans had a steam line in them to prevent freezing.
The scoop was operated by the fireman with an air valve in the gangway on the front of the tender on the engineer's side. Some of the old passenger firemen used to tell stories of not quite getting the scoop raised in time at the end of the pan...
The May 1993 issue of TRAINS had an article of scooping water, noting that the Pennsy, by 1929, had 80 pans at 27 locations, totalling 58 miles in length. Other roads utilising this practice were NYC, Maine Central, Reading, Jersey Central, B&O, New York & Long Branch, New York & New England, Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, and Lake Shore & Michigan Central (including five in southern Ontario).
There was a story in the July 1979 issue of TRAINS about a derailment in Indiana which occurred when the water scoop on a NYC Mohawk failed to fully retract after taking water. After scarring a number of ties, the scoop ripped through the 4"x8" planks of two level crossings. One of the planks hit the switch rod of a facing-point switch, opening the switch and derailing the tender. Unfortunately, one of the trailing cars fouled the opposing track, and was struck by a passenger train (which had managed to slow from 79mph to 65mph before the impact). Upon investigation, a tie and one of the crossing planks were discovered in the tender's cistern!
Wayne
Someone a while back (maybe a year or so?) posted a link to a video clip of a NYC engine taking water at steam, from a commercial video production. BIG splash!!
I believe the water was (at least in come places) controlled by someone in like a nearby tower or station, so that they weren't necessarily full all the time. When a train was coming, they would I think give a whistle signal and a guy would hit a switch to fill the troughs with water.
From walking along the NYC right-of-way almost 60 years ago, the track pans were full all the time. If somebody waited for a whistle signal before filling one, the locomotive wouldn't get much - the Niagaras (and the J-3s with the pedestal tenders) could, and did, scoop water at track speed, so the pan had to be full long before any water tender could have heard a whistle.
Those little pipes along the bottom of a NYC pedestal tender were overflow vents, and a LOT of water came out of them when scooping water at speed. Don't ask me how I know!
Chuck
Intresting this-we had these here in the UK ,we call them troughs,and there was a lot of them in steam days.
During the late 50's when we got around to diselisation a few of our earliest type's of diesel's had waterscoop apparatus fitted-did any US diesel have it?
The great thing about water troughs was to keep the windows closed if you were riding in the first coach-if the fireman did'nt get the scoop out of the trough in time the tender tank overflowed and drenched those poor souls in the first part of the leading coach-the results could be pretty spectacular,wet socks all round!
Steve
There was also a pan on the PRSL between Philadelphia and Atlantic City.
I believe the NYC used water pans the most & really had it down to a science. They conducted tests to determine what speed and vent system could fill the tender most efficiently. In later years the Niagara's big centipede tenders only held 16,000 gals of water, but enough coal that they only needed to stop for coal one time between New York City (Harmon) & Chicago
The NYC could pick up enough water at 60 - 80 mph eliminating the need to stop for water, Allowing trains like the 20th Century to mantain a 16 hr schedule from NYC to Chicago. According to my grandfather's rule book a "lunar" light at either end of the pan, would be the signal for the firemen to drop & raise the water scoop.
I believe that the pans were steam heated, but the RR did hire men in very cold weather to chip off the ice from the spray that accumulated on everything near the track.
If it wern't for the many vents on the tender, scooping water at 80 mph would cause the tender to rupture from the suddenly increased air pressure inside the tank as water was being forced into the tank.
Rob
The old timers on the Rock Island told me several stories of bodies being taken off the back of NYC tenders at La Salle St Station in the winter. They were frozen from the overflow, hitching a free ride in winter wasn't a good plan on track pan equipped roads.
A track pan location usually was manned 24/7, I don't know if they were section men, or came off of some other seniorty roster.
On the through Washington-Jersey City B&O route, there were 4 track pans. Two were on the B&O: Swan Creek,MD and Stanton,DE, one was on the Reading at Roelofs, PA and the fourth was on the CNJ at Green Brook, NJ.
Only passenger trains scooped and on the B&O, the speed limit was 50 mph. It turned out that 40mph was the best speed and anything below 30 mph was less effective. There were penstocks at the water pan locations for freights that stooped to take water.
Norman, you should be able to edit your original post: simply click on the "MORE" icon at the top right in that post and you'll get a drop-down menu that includes an "EDIT" option.
Prior replies seem to confirm the impression that I always had that water pans were used almost exclusively by eastern RR's. This got me wondering just why they were never adopted by other roads which also ran high speed trains on tight schedules such as the IC, Burlington, CNW, ACL, etc. Does anybody have an explanation for this?
Mark
KCSfan Prior replies seem to confirm the impression that I always had that water pans were used almost exclusively by eastern RR's. This got me wondering just why they were never adopted by other roads which also ran high speed trains on tight schedules such as the IC, Burlington, CNW, ACL, etc. Does anybody have an explanation for this? Mark
Johnny
In hot arid areas, like the AT&SF Transcon, water evaporates far more rapidly, so track pans would be inefficient in providing water for locomotives. With the density of traffic then being far less than eastern railroads, evaporation would waste a precioius commodity. water. In the north, of course freezing in winter would be a problem (even with steam heating pipes). The density of traffic in the east mininzed both the freezing and the evaporation problems.
I'm sure a lot of it was just saving time / cutting the scheduled time. On the NYC's water level route, trains could consistently run at very high speeds so by scooping water on the fly they didn't have to waste time stopping at some town that the limiteds wouldn't have otherwise stopped at. In the west speeds were limited by things like the Rocky Mountains for example. Also, the distances being travelled was much farther (i.e. the North Coast Limited had a much longer trip from Chicago to Seattle than the Twentieth Century Limited had from New York to Chicago). Cutting the schedule from 18 to hours to 16 hours is a much greater change than cutting it from 54 hours to 52 hours. Plus, since there were fewer trains on the western roads even the top trains tended to make a lot of station stops. The 20th Century only made a handful of stops between NYC and Chicago, people going on the same route between two relatively small towns that the Century didn't stop at still had a number of lesser New York Central trains to take.
narig01One comment. I remember reading / hearing that the tender water hatch was open during any scoop. This was done on account of the pressure of the water. Rgds Ian
Only true for tenders which weren't fitted with vents. The E6s that had tender cistern damage while hauling the Lindbergh Special MIGHT have avoided it had the hatch been open, but the NYC 4-10 pedestal tanks had sufficient vents open to the air that the hatches could be left closed.
It was usually the head end brakeman's job to operate the scoop. Signals from the engineer would instruct the person to lift and drop the scoop. The pans on the PRR were steam heated and the flow of water was constant to keep debris from going up the scoop. There was also no ballast around the pans. The track structure was built on stone blocks with lots of drainage. Its kind of funny knowing that the railroads recycled water from the pans back to the pans. The ends of the troughs were reinforced so a wayward scoop would be mangled if dropped to early or lifted too late. Better to lose one scoop then an entire line. The entire head end crew would suffer the 3 days off minus pay for the mishap. Another thing worth noting is that the tender would never fill to capacity by scooping. You always got more at the spout then the scoop. The turbulence of the water would splash quite a bit out the vents and even sometimes pop the top hatches open depending on how fast the water was scooped. And yes many a hobo or tramp was frozen to death riding on the back of the tenders or first car. Many more were thrown from the train by the force of the water. If the head end brakeman did not see them get on.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Note also how much water was wasted. Water was a precious commodity on most Western lines.
Here are a couple of links to very informative stories on Track Plans and water scooping.
http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/scoop.htm
http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/wilmore1.htm
I beleive I found them by googling "Track Pans" and "steam locomoitve water scooping"
Thanks for the links!
Crandell
On the B&O, which had two pans, one at Swan Creek, MD and the other at Stanton, DE, it was the job of the Fireman to lower the scoop, at the direction of the Engineer. First the Engineer opened a valve to put air to the scoop control and once done, the Fireman operated the control handle to lower the scoop.
Belgian block was all around the right-of-way at both water pan locations to enable better run off and to prevent disrupting the ballast. Also, the drainage helped prevent ice build up around the pans in winter.
The pans on the B&O were only 1,200 feet in length and held about 8,000 gallons of water, which was heated in the winter to prevent freezing. At 50 mph, the scoop was over quickly, not yielding a fill tank. After each scooping, the pans had to be refilled which took 7 or 8 minutes.
The track pans were part of the Washington-Jersey City through service on the B&O, which used the Reading and had a track pan ar Roelofs, PA and the Central of New Jersey, which had a pan at Green Brook, NJ. Thirty miles beyond that the train was in Jersey City and the passengers boarded a ferry to finish the trip across the Hudson River to New York City. The B&O engine and crew would work through. As the route was dieselized, the track pans were removed, first Stanton in 1949 and then Swan Creek in 1953, the year steam ended on that part of the B&O for good.
Norman
For a good look at some PRR-era track troughs (aka track tanks or track pans) see Don Ball Jr's book, The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s - 1950s (Elm Tree Books, 1986), p. 127. The color photo shows the troughs on PRR's then 4-tracked Middle Division mainline at Mapleton, PA, between Mt. Union and Huntingdon (now NS). Interestingly, this location is on a curve. The caption explains that pans were usually about eight in. deep and 19" wide. The entrance was marked by a white target or lunar light. The photo also shows the Mapleton boiler house, and the author states that each PRR track trough location had its own heating plant that pumped live steam directly into the water to keep it from freezing in winter, as others here have mentioned.
Ball tells of unsuspecting hobos riding the tender beam who would get drenched during the flying pickups. In winter, he says, some of these poor souls were later found frozen to death. That's a pretty severe penalty for trespassing. That aside, it must have been something to watch a K4 Pacific taking a big gulp at track speed.
What a great thread, I love this forum.
watch?v=FdeZhsBoznc
I found this video on Youtube showing the Empire Express picking up water in 1905.
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